And who is in charge of those agencies?
It is not Trump.
If you believe that it is, then you have succumbed to the cult of the leader.
It is always, in every nation, the executive administrator. Depending on the nation, that would be either the Prime Minister or the President.
In the US, the Constitution (article 2) dictates that the President is the leader of the executive branch. That would be Mr Trump. How else could he have fired James Comey, the former FBI leader or John Brennan, the former CIA director?
That makes Mr Trump the top copper in their nation. Their FBI, CIA, DOJ, and all law enforcement agencies ultimately answer to their President.
So who is really a part of a “cult” here?
- Deeply deceived - dd
- Wanting to deceive - wd
- just stupid - js
Which has been you?
Yeah…
I don’t think you understand trumps consternation…
These organizations are mad at trump.
Trump is not the judiciary or congress (even though he thinks he is), but he does have these powers and they just don’t like the guy.
Like I said before, homeland security has done an awesome job since 9/11, and trump treats them like shit. While trump is out grabbing pussies and calling them the swamp, there is resentment.
You don’t think he did anything wrong by pressuring the Ukraine start an investigation into his political rivals.
Others think that it went beyond what a president ought to be doing and that it’s an impeachable offense.
That doesn’t make them unethical or stupid.
I’m all for a president asking other countries to investigate if they don’t trust their own country.
The big question is whether there was a quid pro quo.
Now that’s fucked up!
He doesn’t have the power to do whatever he wants. That would be a dictatorship.
Is that what you have?
I don’t think that he did anything wrong in asking for assistance in his DOJ’s investigation of conspicuous evidence of corruption regardless of who was being suspected.
Realize that Joe Biden had already given very strong evidence of his guilt of extortion (a quid quo pro) by his own admission on video. That alone doesn’t equal guilt, but it certainly warrants an investigation.
They launched a $25 million, 2 year investigation against Mr Trump based on merely a bar room rumor. They proved it to be merely a rumor immediately but the objective was to remove Trump, not to find actual guilt - “if you can’t convict him on something he did, convict him on something he didn’t do. Just don’t ever stop trying to reach your goal.”
“Others” are making any excuse they can. Surely you have seen people on this board doing that exact same thing - twist the words, deny the obvious, invent confusion, and so on just so they never ever admit defeat.
If you haven’t seen people doing that on this board, simply watch your own behavior. You could never admit that you have been deceived so deeply. That would be sacrilege to your soul. So you must just keep denying, fighting, or running away - fight or fLight.
He just asked? He didn’t use the threat of withholding aid?
What I meant (sorry) is not that he has the powers of the judiciary and congress, but that the commander in chief has the ability to dictate and fire anyone from intelligence or armed services… and not only is the judiciary and congress mad at him, so are the intelligence and armed services (rightfully so!)
I’ll say this again, because it bears repeating…
Trump inherited an infrastructure that’s almost impossible for a single president to destroy… and infrastructure that’s almost kept us attack free since 9/11. But damn, he’s trying everything in his power to denigrate and destroy them all.
The man is a traitor by inference - law deals with the deductive —- we all know trump is a traitor, that’s just not how US law works.
No he did NOT. He never mentioned the aid at all and as it turns out President Zelensky didn’t even know there was any aid being held back. I believe that it was Mr Zelensky who placed the call, but I can’t verify that at the moment.
This didn’t copy and paste very well. You can follow the link to the actual PDF.
The phone call is only a part of it.
What about this testimony :
Look into WHO told him that. It was an issue of amb Sondland presuming (because that is how all politicians think) and relaying that thought to someone who relayed it to someone who relayed it to someone and back to Sonland. Mr Trump told amb Sondland directly that he only wanted Mr Zelensky to do as he promised in his campaign and that he wanted “no qui quo pro” concerning anything. Amb Sondland finally admitted that in the hearing.
Additionally Giuliani suggested to amb Sondland that the sooner Mr Trump knew that Zelensky was going to be honest, the sooner the aid would be released. And he then suggested a public announcement so that there would be no question.
The aid was being held up for two other reasons, having nothing to do with any qui pro quo. The aid was already scheduled to be released anyway, by US law. Mr Trump was delaying it to maximize the US’s stand in negotiating with Europe (such delays are common and proven). It had nothing to do with the investigations. And the aid was delivered without any reciprocation other than testimony from US Senators and Giuliani that Mr Zelensky was an honest man doing as he promised.
Nothing Mr Trump said or did was illegal nor even unethical.
Let the trial go ahead and let witnesses testify in the Senate.
We will see what happens.
Pelosi is holding up the trial because she knows that their case is vacuous. She is hoping that Shiff will come up with additional charges to claim.
McConnell is ready to go in the Senate. Schumer is trying to force McConnell to run the trial the way the House wants it run (very corruptly as they did with the impeachment). McConnell says he intends to run the trial exactly as it was with Mr Clinton. Pelosi then shifts the blame for her delay on McConnell for not going along with Schumer and her.
It is the devil pursuing an innocent man. Woe be to those who fought the devil’s battle.
Again I have to accept that to be as much of a concession as I could ever expect on a board like this one.
So if anyone is still reading this, how should we rate phyllo - “dd”, “wd”, or “js”?
Personally, I can’t place him/her into the js category. Phyllo followed the ball from point to point, whether agreeing or not. Stupid people don’t usually do that. They either stand on the home plate waiting for the next ball to be thrown more amiably or they take off randomly running out into the field perchance stepping on a plate then claiming “home run”. There are a few on this board who seem to fit that category, but not phyllo as depicted in this thread (I haven’t looked back to study him … yet).
So that leaves wd and dd. Wd is harder to identify with certainty because it involves motive. But typically the wd will never give in to any proof. He will just deny and attempt to shift the goal post and confuse the readers, keeping the adversary off balance. And that is when they are willing to debate at all. Phyllo did not admit error openly, but he did indicate by his demeanor that he had conceded to prior argumentation before jumping to another issue.
So even though it isn’t impossible, I would think it unlikely that phyllo belongs in the wd category.
For me, it seems at this point, I have to, at least for a while, accept that phyllo is (or has been) a “dd”, deeply deceived).
But what say other readers?
I don’t think that your “Trump is top cop” argument is valid. High crimes and misdemeanors clearly covers the case of someone with power over agencies using them to target his political opponents. (There was an example of it in the wiki quote that I posted.)
I don’t think targeting political opponents is a legitimate part of international diplomacy.
But I don’t say that you are deceived, deceiving or stupid if you disagree with me.
I also don’t think that this latest post of yours is appropriate for a philosophy discussion forum.
It’s an unpleasant end to the discussion.
I don’t really feel like talking to you again.
Make up whatever narrative you want to explain my feelings.
I take issue with trumps CLAIMED paranoia about this “witch hunt” against him.
I also take issue with Demonizing NON QUID PRO QUO investigations from other countries.
When you’re dealing with the highest office in the land, you should be the most vetted person on earth. Why they complain about this is beyond me.
Spying on trumps campaign before he was elected?
Good for them!!
The question then becomes one of resources.
There is a great imbalance of resources for a sitting president to an up coming opponent.
I don’t think politically that’s the case for Biden … Biden has equal social capital to trump.
We’re not really dealing with power imbalance in this case, so I think both sides should shut up about this.
Here’s the deal. At this level of politics, EVERYONE is vetted the fuck out of. I would expect nothing less.
How much of this becomes public in every cycle ? Not much!
The idea that both trump and Biden complain about their vetting is absurd to me. These are grown men.
Honestly!
Supervisor authority is not executive authority. The board of directors can fire the president or CEO of a corporation. That doesn’t mean that they run the corporation. The CEO makes the decisions but if his decisions lead in a bad direction, the board can get rid of him.
The same is true for the US President. Congress (the “board of directors”) does not run the nation. But if the President’s decisions get too far out of line, they can “fire” the President.
Similarly the population doesn’t run Congress or the nation, yet they can fire everyone official throughout the nation. The people have the ultimate authority in the US. That is what makes it different. But the population is not in charge of hardly anything. They pay others to do that within limits. They just have to keep their eye on the limits. And that is where the media comes in to try to manipulate the population into voting toward giving up their right to fire anyone or even have a say in what games are being played upon them.
He targeted a criminal organization who happened to be a political opponent.
So do you think that as long as someone is running for office, they should never be investigated?
They certainly haven’t minded investigating Mr Trump. Now the shoe is on the other foot.