What is Religion?

So, in effect, what you wrote was:

In fact, I was specifically taught that ritual is dangerous as it leads away from a direct relationship with God – thus rendering impotent the most effective means I know of for effecting transformation of the self.

So in what way does ritual effect transformation of the self?

In the same way that exercise helps physical transformation; through repeated practice, the mind is given a training.
This isn’t the only means, no, but it is a means.

Technically speaking (not that anyone cares of technical accuracy) a
Religion == a construct of understanding (beliefs) designed to “RE-enforce the LEGION” (the actual meaning of the word from the Latin “ligit” - binding).

But in a war, words get redefined to mean whatever the opponents and proponents choose.

:smiley: How funny.

I had planned to write a bit on the subject this morning, but your pithy statement does the job quite nicely. I’d only add that I believe undertaking training in this way is the only truly dependable way to effect self-transformation. I think this is true whether or not one believes in God.

I laughed!

Go right ahead. Explain how those originators and masters of ritual, the friars, monks, priests, bishops and popes who scandalised Europe (and haven’t stopped doing so) were transformed. Explain why, to the person in the street, the word ‘priest’ is now almost synonymous with ‘paederast’. Unfairly, of course, but then they are unjust and fraudulent in their very existence, and can hardly complain.

Take any period in history, from ancient Egypt to the present: ritual, liturgy, special apparel, special titles, special occasions, special buildings, these were and remain the often failed recourses of the fearful, the corrupt- not the transformed. Recourses that have failed, that are discarded by those most intended as targets- yet remain the only means of religious control for the corrupt, because honesty would give them away. Ritual hides insincerity. Liturgy makes original thought unnecessary, even undesirable.

Protestantism, otoh, has no use for ritual or liturgy, and is feared by the corrupt because it exposes corruption.

I was actually thinking of simple prayer or meditation, to be honest. Take it easy, Ochaye. Stumps and I both discussed mind training, not hypocricy, pomposity and power mongering. I realize “ritual” can mean many things to many people, but you seem to be merely looking for a fight.

Perhaps I shouldn’t have mentioned Protestantism in my OP. That was clumsy of me, maybe. But I was specifically taught that repeating something over and over made it rote and insincere, and even wrong. This attitude practically speaking makes it impossible to effect self-transformation. If one’s belief is that self-transformation is in fact effected by God only, then this attitude, in making self-transformation extraordinarily unlikely, must in fact be an attitude that separates oneself from God. This degraded outlook is clearly articulated by Luther, and is apparent in the teachings of many Protestant churches.

How is it that Protestantism exposes corruption? All religions, nations, people, etc. are corrupt. There is no one group that has a special role in exposing corruption. Luther fought corruption. That is something that happened at a specific time in a specific place. Roles can reverse in the blink of an eye.

That is not ritual- any more than religion is recruiting for legions.

The point is, that no Christian will accept anyone as a Christian who needs a book of prayers in public worship. There is nothing that anyone can do about that. In the church, public prayer is, must be, as extempore as private prayer. Anything that varies from that is not the church. Even reciting ‘the Lord’s Prayer’ is a giveaway.

The whole Christian project, from Abram onwards, is founded on the principle of divine action in improvement of the self. If that is rejected, the whole of Christianity is to be rejected, is rejected.

Protestantism exposes corruption because it deals with what honest people actually think, not what is carefully pre-determined by a corrupt person. The Sanhedrin murdered Jesus (and Stephen) for that reason, and eventually the Roman Empire cottoned on to the threat of honest men- and there was then nothing more corrupt than that empire.

No? What if I use a little booklet as a guide and ring a bell once in a while?

Well said. That is exactly the degraded view I’m talking about.

As I said, if the Christian view is that it is only God who actually does the effecting, then the divorce of ritual from spirituality apparently results in the divorce of God from one’s life. If self-transformation is not effected, then God didn’t effect self-transformation.

I’m sorry, but there are innumerable examples of Protestant corruption - just as there are innumerable examples of corruption pretty much anywhere you look.

That’s not simple, is it.

One does not refute purity by calling it degraded.

Where is the logic in that? Ritual is irrelevant. If I take my car for a service, I allow the service to take place, I don’t do the service.

Really? :slight_smile:

Not a bit of it. Protestantism declares sola fide, but many, indeed most, who claim to be Protestant do not accept it. Many actively oppose it.

But this is beside the point. The point is that ritual does not transform- unless it makes vile brutes of men. That practical outcome cannot be denied- even if it can be ignored, which, as human society is deeply corrupt, it is.

It’s about as simple as any “path” or “means” gets.

If a person is actually pure, they have no need for religion at all. Religion is path.

So did all the OT prophets have little booklets and bells? :smiley:

No wonder they were so fearsome.

Quite. But ritual cleans nothing. It just makes for whitewashed corruption.

As history, and the TV news, show in abundance.

Booklets and bells are hardly necessary. But did “the OT prophets” deliberately engage in practices that effect self-transformation? Either they did, in which case we can learn about what they did and try these things ourselves, or they didn’t and we are powerless and depend on fate.

I didn’t realize my meditation practice was shown on tv. Who knew?

Indeed. As those Protestant people said, ritual only gets in the way.

In the way of what?

:smiley:

You’re an interesting character, Ochaye. :slight_smile: