The sober life versus the stoned life

[Alien_Corpuscle_Bath]

@Alien Corpuscle Bath

@Prolificisticationist

@Kissa

And as for the government, well, why is sex before marriage a mortal sin in most established monothiestic religions? Because it can’t be controlled. The government’s JOB is to control the
population.

It would seem you’re mixing up government with religion here. Though sodomy is still illegal in some states of the U.S., for the most part, government has nothing to do with our sex lives.

@Kissa

We have police officers who arrest people who break the law. We have law makers to make the laws governing what we can or can not do. It is the job of the government to control the populace so there will be order. The ultimate job of the government is to prevent anarchy. How they prevent anarchy is up to the voters, because the voters are who control the people who end up making the laws.

@Kissa

So, psychotropic substances are controlled for two reasons (IMO). Number 1, they can not control people who use them, and the people who use them are much more likely to resist authority that feels restrictive than those who do not. Number 2, the goverment makes FAR more money arresting people for drug use than it ever possibly could for setting up a tax on the same thing.

Public health. You’re leaving out public health. Sure, if you get yourself caught in the dragnet and have to pay out of your ass from a run-in with law-enforcement, then it’s a BIG hassle. And I agree that many drug laws are just nonsensical and the sentences imposed are oftentimes outlandish for simple possession/non-violent cases. Don’t even get me started on “mandatory minimums,” one of the biggest criminal-justice farces in 20th-century American history.

However, once you start in with the whole “government controls LSD and shrooms to keep us from questioning authority” bit, you start to lose me a little. I mean for Christ’s sakes if it was all about preventing us from “thinking freely” they’d have Michael Moore in CHAINS. The man’s made $50 million in just the first two weeks from his movie attacking the current administration!

Kissa I put the important stuff in red. THAT’S the function of our government.

-John-

Hey, I agree with most of what she said. The government makes a shitload off of illegal drugs already. I had to take a mandatory drug class once for possessing a small amount of Marijuana. In the class they added up the totals of the amounts that each of the drug offenders in the class have payed out in the long run including probationers fees, court fees, attorney’s fees, etc. and the amount ended up to close to 100,000 dollars per person (though a few paid way more then the rest), and there were 8 people in the class. That was about 750,000 dollars the government, lawyers, and other organizations made off of petty criminals. They even seize massive amounts of funds as drug money, auction expensive cars and houses, electronics, all sorts of things. The point was supposed to be in that class how much you lose from using drugs, but I took it more as how much the government gains from you using drugs.

The social institutions of this country would have you think them stupid, but they are a lot smarter then they portray. Not only do they know that drugs make people think differently, and that is a threat to them, but they also know that they will earn money from drugs regaurdless of whether they are legal or not. Most of the people in the class I was in were actual drug dealers and such, but still when you add them in with the more nominal amounts extracted from users, it is quite profitable indeed. One of the idiosyncrasies of this nation’s leaders is the fact that they always support flow of income over any other human value, especially in foreign countries. They have very mixed up priorities. Income and civil compliance are at the top of the list. Just look at the patriot acts, 9/11, and all the money it has made, and the rising levels of compliance that have been achieved. Is that a coincedence? What about the drug war? Should inanimate objects be the object of aggression? What about defenseless nations? Just listen to the contentions given by our social institutions regaurding these actions. Ask yourself if that is really the truth or whether it is simply more convienient for you then the truth.

[Kissa]

@Prolificisticationist

Public health. You’re leaving out public health. Sure, if you get yourself caught in the dragnet and have to pay out of your ass from a run-in with law-enforcement, then it’s a BIG hassle. And I agree that many drug laws are just nonsensical and the sentences imposed are oftentimes outlandish for simple possession/non-violent cases. Don’t even get me started on “mandatory minimums,” one of the biggest criminal-justice farces in 20th-century American history.

Public health? Do you honestly think that, A. The goverment actually makes policies to better the public health of the United States, and B. That the legalization of substances would lead to a bigger public health threat?

Hit the first post in regard to LSD. How often do you think people being taken to hospitals are actually being taken for pure LSD? I’d say 98 times out of 100 they’re being taken because they’ve just ingested enough rat poison to kill a small rodent farm. The only thing legalizing controlled substances would do to the public health would be to make certain they were cut with “clean” substances, regulated properly, and prices would be controlled enough to prevent many of the crime problems we have now.

@Prolificisticationist

However, once you start in with the whole “government controls LSD and shrooms to keep us from questioning authority” bit, you start to lose me a little. I mean for Christ’s sakes if it was all about preventing us from “thinking freely” they’d have Michael Moore in CHAINS. The man’s made $50 million in just the first two weeks from his movie attacking the current administration!

And now, of course, it’s time for me to delve a little deeper into the realms that will get me labelled as a conspiracy theorist. If they had Michael Moore in chains, there would be a public outrage and EVERYONE would flock to not only see the movie, but purchase his books, and start telling everyone else his ideas. Martyring a person is the best possible way to ensure their ideas will be spread throughout the populace.

People who do drugs will do them regardless of whether or not they are legal. People who will not do them when they are illegal probably won’t do them when they become legal, simply because legal is just a word. No one decides not to smoke a joint because it’s not legal. They decide not to smoke a joint based on a personal preference. So we now have a two groups of people, those who do drugs, which is directly breaking the law, and those who do not. Those who do not are in the governments favor, because a person who chooses not to smoke weed will probably never join a group to try to get it legalized, or demonize the government because of the choice to make it illegal. Those who do drugs are breaking the law, aware of the fact that they are breaking the law, and simply do not care. As such, they are a direct threat to the government.

–Kissa

[Alien_Corpuscle_Bath]

@Kissa

@Prolificisticationist

Public health. You’re leaving out public health. Sure, if you get yourself caught in the dragnet and have to pay out of your ass from a run-in with law-enforcement, then it’s a BIG hassle. And I agree that many drug laws are just nonsensical and the sentences imposed are oftentimes outlandish for simple possession/non-violent cases. Don’t even get me started on “mandatory minimums,” one of the biggest criminal-justice farces in 20th-century American history.

Public health? Do you honestly think that, A. The goverment actually makes policies to better the public health of the United States, and B. That the legalization of substances would lead to a bigger public health threat?

Hit the first post in regard to LSD. How often do you think people being taken to hospitals are actually being taken for pure LSD? I’d say 98 times out of 100 they’re being taken because they’ve just ingested enough rat poison to kill a small rodent farm. The only thing legalizing controlled substances would do to the public health would be to make certain they were cut with “clean” substances, regulated properly, and prices would be controlled enough to prevent many of the crime problems we have now.

@Prolificisticationist

However, once you start in with the whole “government controls LSD and shrooms to keep us from questioning authority” bit, you start to lose me a little. I mean for Christ’s sakes if it was all about preventing us from “thinking freely” they’d have Michael Moore in CHAINS. The man’s made $50 million in just the first two weeks from his movie attacking the current administration!

And now, of course, it’s time for me to delve a little deeper into the realms that will get me labelled as a conspiracy theorist. If they had Michael Moore in chains, there would be a public outrage and EVERYONE would flock to not only see the movie, but purchase his books, and start telling everyone else his ideas. Martyring a person is the best possible way to ensure their ideas will be spread throughout the populace.

People who do drugs will do them regardless of whether or not they are legal. People who will not do them when they are illegal probably won’t do them when they become legal, simply because legal is just a word. No one decides not to smoke a joint because it’s not legal. They decide not to smoke a joint based on a personal preference. So we now have a two groups of people, those who do drugs, which is directly breaking the law, and those who do not. Those who do not are in the governments favor, because a person who chooses not to smoke weed will probably never join a group to try to get it legalized, or demonize the government because of the choice to make it illegal. Those who do drugs are breaking the law, aware of the fact that they are breaking the law, and simply do not care. As such, they are a direct threat to the government.

–Kissa

True…

Though I must say that I am skeptical of the rat poison thing. I used to think that at one point, and it is a common rumor on the streets. It just so happens that I have a friend that is one of those people who will try anything. When he heard that rat poison makes you trip he actually went to the store, bought some rat poison, and ate some. He said that it DID NOT make him trip. It just made him sick to his stomach. I think that rumor comes from the fact that making LSD can produce a lot of unhealthy biproducts that could be considered poison and might kill a rat if made incorrectly. You are dealing with claviceps purpea (ergot) which is one of the most toxic substances known to man, and has been blamed for the salem withchcraft trials and all sorts of things. Most of it certainly isn’t good for you. There are only certain chemicals that you want out of the fungus, and if you aren’t careful some of the other more toxic chemicals might end up in your finished product. The whole strichnine makes you trip thing is a fallacy however. The toxins that might be in so called “dirty acid” are much more likely to be ergovine and/or ergotamine. Ergotamine can actually be used to synthesize LSD by itself.

[Kissa]

@Alien Corpuscle Bath

True…

Though I must say that I am skeptical of the rat poison thing. I used to think that at one point, and it is a common rumor on the streets. It just so happens that I have a friend that is one of those people who will try anything. When he heard that rat poison makes you trip he actually went to the store, bought some rat poison, and ate some. He said that it DID NOT make him trip. It just made him sick to his stomach. I think that rumor comes from the fact that making LSD can produce a lot of unhealthy biproducts that could be considered poison and might kill a rat if made incorrectly. You are dealing with claviceps purpea (ergot) which is one of the most toxic substances known to man, and has been blamed for the salem withchcraft trials and all sorts of things. Most of it certainly isn’t good for you. There are only certain chemicals that you want out of the fungus, and if you aren’t careful some of the other more toxic chemicals might end up in your finished product. The whole strichnine makes you trip thing is a fallacy however. The toxins that might be in so called “dirty acid” are much more likely to be ergovine and/or ergotamine. Ergotamine can actually be used to synthesize LSD by itself.

The urban legend strychnine bit I have heard as well, actually and never bought into it. However, I spent a fair amount of time with my brother immediately after he got out of prison. Apparently the entire enlightenment of his prison experience was spending time with actual drug manufacturers and learning the recipes they used. My brother, being the type of person he is, wrote down all the recipes, and is now working on writing a book that contains all of it. I have not personally tried any of these, but as far as sources go, I would say people in federal prison with much longer sentences than my brother had probably have a bit of experience in the matter.

Regardless, the original intent in the post is that, IMO, if drugs were legalized in this country and regulated properly, many of the health problems we are seeing now would be reduced, as opposed to increasing, due to the way drugs are currently being manufactured and distributed.

–Kissa

[Alien_Corpuscle_Bath]

@Kissa

@Alien Corpuscle Bath

True…

Though I must say that I am skeptical of the rat poison thing. I used to think that at one point, and it is a common rumor on the streets. It just so happens that I have a friend that is one of those people who will try anything. When he heard that rat poison makes you trip he actually went to the store, bought some rat poison, and ate some. He said that it DID NOT make him trip. It just made him sick to his stomach. I think that rumor comes from the fact that making LSD can produce a lot of unhealthy biproducts that could be considered poison and might kill a rat if made incorrectly. You are dealing with claviceps purpea (ergot) which is one of the most toxic substances known to man, and has been blamed for the salem withchcraft trials and all sorts of things. Most of it certainly isn’t good for you. There are only certain chemicals that you want out of the fungus, and if you aren’t careful some of the other more toxic chemicals might end up in your finished product. The whole strichnine makes you trip thing is a fallacy however. The toxins that might be in so called “dirty acid” are much more likely to be ergovine and/or ergotamine. Ergotamine can actually be used to synthesize LSD by itself.

The urban legend strychnine bit I have heard as well, actually and never bought into it. However, I spent a fair amount of time with my brother immediately after he got out of prison. Apparently the entire enlightenment of his prison experience was spending time with actual drug manufacturers and learning the recipes they used. My brother, being the type of person he is, wrote down all the recipes, and is now working on writing a book that contains all of it. I have not personally tried any of these, but as far as sources go, I would say people in federal prison with much longer sentences than my brother had probably have a bit of experience in the matter.

Regardless, the original intent in the post is that, IMO, if drugs were legalized in this country and regulated properly, many of the health problems we are seeing now would be reduced, as opposed to increasing, due to the way drugs are currently being manufactured and distributed.

–Kissa

Actually, the same friend I mentioned earlier went to prison, and did the very same thing. When we picked him up he had this list of recipes from supposed manufacturers. They were bunk as hell! Not saying that is necessarily the case with your brother’s recipes, but you might want to double check on erwid.com in the chemistry section before proceeding.

[Kissa]

@Alien Corpuscle Bath

Actually, the same friend I mentioned earlier went to prison, and did the very same thing. When we picked him up he had this list of recipes from supposed manufacturers. They were bunk as hell! Not saying that is necessarily the case with your brother’s recipes, but you might want to double check on erwid.com in the chemistry section before proceeding.

Better living through chemistry eh? Actually, no, I have no desire to attempt any of his three different recipes in making crank. One of his recipes also included LSD, however it looked fairly complicated, and the idea of having molding rye bread in my closet is less than appealing. =P When I take drugs, I do so to expand my thinking. There are certain drugs I have no desire to do based on what I’ve read and seen, and there are some that I generally tend not to do often simply because I do not end up with the effects that I desire.

I tend to be fairly experimental and open minded in what I do, just because I enjoy new experiences. Some things I wouldn’t do again, some things I would, but I don’t regret what I have done, mainly because I research fairly thoroughly before I attempt anything. Granted, I’m generally not dissuaded by my research, such as in the case of Jimson, but it does give me more of an idea what to expect.

–Kissa

–Kissa

[Alien_Corpuscle_Bath]

@Kissa

@Alien Corpuscle Bath

Actually, the same friend I mentioned earlier went to prison, and did the very same thing. When we picked him up he had this list of recipes from supposed manufacturers. They were bunk as hell! Not saying that is necessarily the case with your brother’s recipes, but you might want to double check on erwid.com in the chemistry section before proceeding.

Better living through chemistry eh? Actually, no, I have no desire to attempt any of his three different recipes in making crank. One of his recipes also included LSD, however it looked fairly complicated, and the idea of having molding rye bread in my closet is less than appealing. =P When I take drugs, I do so to expand my thinking. There are certain drugs I have no desire to do based on what I’ve read and seen, and there are some that I generally tend not to do often simply because I do not end up with the effects that I desire.

I tend to be fairly experimental and open minded in what I do, just because I enjoy new experiences. Some things I wouldn’t do again, some things I would, but I don’t regret what I have done, mainly because I research fairly thoroughly before I attempt anything. Granted, I’m generally not dissuaded by my research, such as in the case of Jimson, but it does give me more of an idea what to expect.

–Kissa

–Kissa

Yeah, I am pretty much the same way. Always have been. My mom was a nurse, so she had a med book with all drugs in it, they’re effects, contraindictions, etc. Used to look through that every time before I tried something. Now I practically research mind altering substances on my free time so it is not an issue.

Figures those recipes would be for crank. Stuff is easiest to make out of any hard drugs. Also caustic as hell to your body and mind. You are right, making LSD is very hard. You need professional equipment. And whatever you do, don’t grow ergot in your closet. It is extremely toxic, and you can get st. anthony’s fire just from simply breathing in the spores. It could cause you to go completely insane, and your limbs to go ganghren and rot off. It takes a license to grow the stuff legally even. Not pretty at all.

[Prolificisticationis (Prolificisticationist)]

^ ^ Sounds like all government regulation might not be misguided and oppressive after all, eh?

No one decides not to smoke a joint because it’s not legal. They decide not to smoke a joint based on a personal preference.

Are you kidding me? Marijuana isn’t in mass use because1. Its availability to the public is greatly limited as compared to for example, alcohol and tobacco.

1. The stuff is ILLEGAL.
2. And precisely because it’s illegal, its possession is widely frowned upon and taboo.
   Naturally, none of the above apply if like yourself and ACB, you have friends and relatives who go off to prison and come back and write recipes for various ways to get high.

So we now have a two groups of people, those who do drugs, which is directly breaking the law, and those who do not. Those who do drugs are breaking the law, aware of the fact that they are breaking the law, and simply do not care. As such, they are a direct threat to the government.

Yep. I’d say that’s a pretty accurate assessment. Whereas our government’s two main purposes are to protect the nation and prevent anarchy (lawlessness) in society, people who regularly break the law because they “simply do not care” are not exactly model citizens for that society.

Sheesh, somebody beam me the fuck up. I feel like I’ve been kidnapped and dropped into some kind of sixties la-la land.

[Kissa]

@Prolificisticationist

Are you kidding me? Marijuana isn’t in mass use because1. Its availability to the public is greatly limited as compared to for example, alcohol and tobacco.

1. The stuff is ILLEGAL.
2. And precisely because it’s illegal, its possession is widely frowned upon and taboo.
   Naturally, none of the above apply if like yourself and ACB, you have friends and relatives who go off to prison and come back and write recipes for various ways to get high.

I take it you aren’t a smoker then John. But let’s face it, ignoring ALL of the other drugs, exactly what effects would we have on society if marijuana was legal and regulated like alcohol, so only sold to 21+. Hordes of drug crazed hippies overrunning the local grocery store looking for candy bars and potato chips? An increase in pizzas being delivered vs being pickedup? Explain to me exactly what the negative social implications there are in legalizing marijuana. I can list the many medical and other uses of the plant, but I think we’ve all heard that before. I’d like to hear a logical, well thought out argument on why the legalization of it is a bad idea. Cigarettes are much worse for you in the long run. What’s the difference? Weed gets you high? So what? I’d much rather be around someone who was high than someone who was drunk. Stoners also don’t go to bars, get into fights, and attack women. Drunks do.

–Kissa

[Alien_Corpuscle_Bath]

@Prolificisticationist

^ ^ Sounds like all government regulation might not be misguided and oppressive after all, eh?

No one decides not to smoke a joint because it’s not legal. They decide not to smoke a joint based on a personal preference.

Are you kidding me? Marijuana isn’t in mass use because1. Its availability to the public is greatly limited as compared to for example, alcohol and tobacco.

1. The stuff is ILLEGAL.
2. And precisely because it’s illegal, its possession is widely frowned upon and taboo.
   Naturally, none of the above apply if like yourself and ACB, you have friends and relatives who go off to prison and come back and write recipes for various ways to get high.

So we now have a two groups of people, those who do drugs, which is directly breaking the law, and those who do not. Those who do drugs are breaking the law, aware of the fact that they are breaking the law, and simply do not care. As such, they are a direct threat to the government.

Yep. I’d say that’s a pretty accurate assessment. Whereas our government’s two main purposes are to protect the nation and prevent anarchy (lawlessness) in society, people who regularly break the law because they “simply do not care” are not exactly model citizens for that society.

Sheesh, somebody beam me the fuck up. I feel like I’ve been kidnapped and dropped into some kind of sixties la-la land.

Yo dude. What about the goverment outlawing pot makes it not misguided and oppressive. Please explain that to me.

@prolifisticationist

Naturally, none of the above apply if like yourself and ACB, you have friends and relatives who go off to prison and come back and write recipes for various ways to get high.

I resent the implication that just because I have a friend that has been to prison that makes me a certain type of person. It’s simply not true. You can scour the good ol’ US of A all you want, and you won’t find “my type” anywhere I guarantee you. That friend lived/still lives in the neighborhood that I grew up in. All my other friends think he has gone down the wrong path. You assume that just because I know him that makes me the type of person that hangs out with those people. Most of my friends are either going to school for some sort of science degree, or already have one. My best friend has a degree in mathematics. Some or most of them do drugs as I do, but we certainly aren’t hippy losers like you seem to think we are. Besides, hippies suck. Part of the baby boomer generation (sorry if this is anyone here). All those people did was take, take, take. And they took everything. They took the non-conformist life and partied hard. They took the upperclass executive jobs, and the conformist Rush Rimjob life. Whatever suited their particular desire at the time, they took it. Just not into that. I rarely even smoke marijuana anymore. I take drug use seriously, and use it for the specific purpose of exploring my psyche.

So we now have a two groups of people, those who do drugs, which is directly breaking the law, and those who do not. Those who do drugs are breaking the law, aware of the fact that they are breaking the law, and simply do not care. As such, they are a direct threat to the government.

@prolifisticationist

Yep. I’d say that’s a pretty accurate assessment. Whereas our government’s two main purposes are to protect the nation and prevent anarchy (lawlessness) in society, people who regularly break the law because they “simply do not care” are not exactly model citizens for that society.

Is that your goal, to become a model citizen? If you live in a system that goes against everything you stand for, why should you conform to it? You are treating the goverment like it is supposed to be some self-sufficient entity. You are forgeting that the government is supposed to represent the people in America, thus the term “representative democracy”. The problem is it doesn’t represent all the people, just the ones with money. Therein lies the problem. Who wants to be a model citizen in a country that does not represent them, is the most hypocritical and oppressive regime on the planet sitting on the largest stockpile of weapons of mass destruction, sells more weapons (even to extremely oppressive regimes against U.N. wishes) then any other country, murders innocent civilians in other countries, supports terrorist paramilitaries in other countries, plots assassination attempts such as car bombings that were specifically designed for maximum casualties, overthrows democratically elected governments in other countries and sets up dictatorships, supports genocide of small defenseless countries/provinces (namely East Timor), attacks other countries completely unprovoked while giving the U.N. the finger, is home to corprations that shit on the environment, put strange additives in the food, and flash subliminal messages on the screens of the T.V.'s their citizens watch, has polticians that lie all the time, is home to corporations such as Union Carbide who inflict massive amounts of casualties from industrial accidents caused by neglect then run off back home to never face any consequences for it at all, is home to corporations that screw over their own workers intentionally by cooking the books, throws their own citizens in jail for harmless activities such as smoking marijuana and therefor has one of the largest and fastest growing prison populations in the world (it is the largest % wise), neglects foreign treaties and defies international law in general, constantly throws elections, puts into office candidates that we didn’t vote for, and buys much of it’s voting machines (which can’t be double checked) from right wing political activist corporations? Not I. You go ahead and be that model citizen if that makes you feel good.

[Alien_Corpuscle_Bath]

And by the way, the job of the government is not to prevent anarchy and lawlessness. It’s job is to represent the people. If the people want anarchy and lawlessness it’s the government’s job to give it to them.

[unFaith]

Well, here’s my personal experience if anyone is interested.

I must say, marijuana is great. It definetly opens your mind and makes you realize what a lie you had been living. This said, I smoked marijuana at the age of 15-16.5. It was the most amazing change in my life, but I matured enough to move on without it.

This is the similar case with most, but there comes a time when you mature into an adult, and you see that your habit has lost its “vigor”.

No high really compares to that first couple times that you REALLY get high. It’s amazing, but after a year and a half you come to realize you are now just opening your mind to new overpowering thought while actually hindering your thinking skills. You should step back into reality to make better judgements and realize what it is you should really focus your attention on in life to become successful.

One who never steps out of reality, doesn’t realize the experience they are truly living. But to step out of reality for a long period of time, it just sets your mind loose and into obscurity.

I remember finding philosophy through marijuana, but it only taught me the process in which to think. All of my philosophies were complete junk. Sure they seamed pretty “crazy” and great while I was high, but in a sober state of mind I had no idea what I was even writing about.

I finally quit marijuana and watched my friends continue to smoke and go no where. I knew I was heading in the same direction if I hadn’t quit. This was the best decision of my life. I got things in order and began to educate myself using this inner creative and inspired mind which had been energized by that smoking of marijuana.

So yes, marijuana is good, but if you don’t realize when to stop, your social skills and many important functions of life can be lost.

I believe everyone should experiment, and then choose the sober life with your new improved mind. It is a beautiful thing to quit and find the knowledge you knew you could aquire.

But then I sit back and wonder now…maybe smoking as a youth just made it seam crazy because I had not learned to understand the world completely yet. I feel so much more intelligent nowadays, but it could have just been the process of growing up that took a toll on my mind in those days.

However I do know, my friends who in youth smoked, continue to smoke, and seam to have never grown up. They still have an obscure view of the world and are confused by many things they come across.

It’s a strange thing…

[Kissa]

@unFaith

Well, here’s my personal experience if anyone is interested.
This is the similar case with most, but there comes a time when you mature into an adult, and you see that your habit has lost its “vigor”.

I finally quit marijuana and watched my friends continue to smoke and go no where. I knew I was heading in the same direction if I hadn’t quit. This was the best decision of my life. I got things in order and began to educate myself using this inner creative and inspired mind which had been energized by that smoking of marijuana.

So yes, marijuana is good, but if you don’t realize when to stop, your social skills and many important functions of life can be lost.

I believe everyone should experiment, and then choose the sober life with your new improved mind. It is a beautiful thing to quit and find the knowledge you knew you could aquire.

Well, see the original point of my post was to find out what reasons people had for justifying the fact that it’s illegal. To that end, I’ve got, it makes people lazy and stupid and they lack ambition, if they overdo it. Well hell, as far as I’m concerned TV does the same damned thing. I smoke weed about 4 times a year, some years a bit more, some a bit less. No, I do not choose a sober life as far as you would classify it. However, I’m certainly not someone who sits on the couch all day eating brownies, taking bong hits and randomly wandering off topic as I try to hold down a conversation.

People who are likely to overuse weed are just as likely to do everything in excess. If it wasn’t weed, it would be something else. For every person who I could tell you I know marijuana has helped, in so far as people with glaucoma, ADD, and people who simply use it as a tool to look further in the universe and expand their thoughts, you can come up with just as many examples of lazy hippies. It’s a circular argument and a waste of time. I still haven’t heard a single good argument as to why it is illegal in our society and what negative implications the legalization, and not use, of marijuana would have.

–Kissa

[Prolificisticationis (Prolificisticationist)]

@Kissa

I take it you aren’t a smoker then John. But let’s face it, ignoring ALL of the other drugs, exactly what effects would we have on society if marijuana was legal and regulated like alcohol, so only sold to 21+. Hordes of drug crazed hippies overrunning the local grocery store looking for candy bars and potato chips? An increase in pizzas being delivered vs being pickedup? Explain to me exactly what the negative social implications there are in legalizing marijuana. I can list the many medical and other uses of the plant, but I think we’ve all heard that before. I’d like to hear a logical, well thought out argument on why the legalization of it is a bad idea. Cigarettes are much worse for you in the long run. What’s the difference? Weed gets you high? So what? I’d much rather be around someone who was high than someone who was drunk. Stoners also don’t go to bars, get into fights, and attack women. Drunks do.

–Kissa

Hi Kissa. I agree with everything you just said. I am 100% for the legalization of pot. You’re absolutely right, I don’t smoke it, but if it were legal? I might very well schmoke a few bowls a week - even though I don’t smoke at all! (not even cigs) As you said, the stuff is WAY less harmful than alcohol, for sure.

Instead, I was responding to your contention that “no one decides not to smoke a joint because it’s not legal,” and that they refrain from smoking pot based on personal preference. That is just not the case.

[Prolificisticationis (Prolificisticationist)]

@unFaith

I remember finding philosophy through marijuana, but it only taught me the process in which to think. All of my philosophies were complete junk. Sure they seamed pretty “crazy” and great while I was high, but in a sober state of mind I had no idea what I was even writing about.

LOL! That’s funny as hell.

@unFaith

I finally quit marijuana and watched my friends continue to smoke and go no where. I knew I was heading in the same direction if I hadn’t quit. This was the best decision of my life.

This man is right.

Listen to him. Even though I just said I might smoke it if it were legal - really it’s just a guess. I have a lifelong friend who is every psych textbook’s definition of amotivational syndrome. The man’s cooked. He’s been a daily toker for decades and today you find him lackadaisical, absolutely hooked** by his own admission and quite unable to break free.

He has tried in earnest several times.

**Yes, marijuana is addictive. Psychological addiction is real.

[Prolificisticationis (Prolificisticationist)]

@Alien Corpuscle Bath

I resent the implication that just because I have a friend that has been to prison that makes me a certain type of person. […] My best friend has a degree in mathematics. Some or most of them do drugs as I do, but we certainly aren’t hippy losers like you seem to think we are.

Alien, I am sorry to have caused offense. You and Kissa just appeared to be advocating doing whatever the hell you wanted, “government be damned.” You seem not to appreciate that law and order are necessary in any civilized society. As far as the people you hang with–you really do have to be mindful of that. People get evicted from apartments over that stuff, man. Depending on what the laws of your state are, if you’re in the same car as some dude who has weed and it gets pulled over - then guess what? You’re genuinely at risk. I personally have known people in both examples who have had their lives wrecked and criminal records acquired just because of the people they associated with.

That is why I frown upon using pot or hanging with anyone who possesses it. My friend Joe? He’s my best friend! But hell, you can’t even be around that guy because every other friggin’ person who comes through his door has got some kind of dirt on them, or they’ll steal from you if you’re not looking - something. I am not saying this is you, or Kissa, or anyone else on the board for that matter - but it has been my experience that people who routinely break the law usually have more than one thing to hide.

There is also the social axiom that you are known by the friends you keep. So you see:

I am not against pot.

I am against its use or possession because it is against the law.

@Alien Corpuscle Bath

The government is supposed to represent the people in America, thus the term “representative democracy”. The problem is it doesn’t represent all the people, just the ones with money. Therein lies the problem. Who wants to be a model citizen in a country that does not represent them, is the most hypocritical and oppressive regime on the planet sitting on the largest stockpile of weapons of mass destruction, sells more weapons (even to extremely oppressive regimes against U.N. wishes) then any other country, murders innocent civilians in other countries, supports terrorist paramilitaries in other countries, plots assassination attempts such as car bombings that were specifically designed for maximum casualties, overthrows democratically elected governments in other countries and sets up dictatorships, supports genocide of small defenseless countries/provinces (namely East Timor), attacks other countries completely unprovoked while giving the U.N. the finger, is home to corprations that shit on the environment, put strange additives in the food, and flash subliminal messages on the screens of the T.V.'s their citizens watch, has polticians that lie all the time, is home to corporations such as Union Carbide who inflict massive amounts of casualties from industrial accidents caused by neglect then run off back home to never face any consequences for it at all, is home to corporations that screw over their own workers intentionally by cooking the books, throws their own citizens in jail for harmless activities such as smoking marijuana and therefor has one of the largest and fastest growing prison populations in the world (it is the largest % wise), neglects foreign treaties and defies international law in general, constantly throws elections, puts into office candidates that we didn’t vote for, and buys much of it’s voting machines (which can’t be double checked) from right wing political activist corporations? Not I. You go ahead and be that model citizen if that makes you feel good.

Heh… whew! I would never presume to know such a thing, but you appear to harbor an intense hatred for your own country. You are entitled to your views and your distrust, and your condemnation and criticisms. And regarding current events, I agree the invasion of Iraq and the cooked up intelligence was an historic sham. One that will cause us more violence, hatred, and mistrust for generations. I voted for Bush! I won’t be voting for him again! I’m not ignoring this. But you know what Alien: There is still no country like us on the face of the Earth - and I won’t be renouncing my citizenship any time soon, LOL. I really do think we all take our freedoms–which are always pain for in blood–too much for granted.

Are you an anarchist? You know - do you show up at the WTO conferences just to cause a bunch of turmoil and “promote” this “ideal” of lawlessness in the streets? I am not trying to label you, but whenever I see this amount of disillusionment; this much unbridled angst and disregard for the U.S. government and its laws, my eyebrows do twitch upward a bit.

Alien… You can understand this right?

Peace, brutha

[Alien_Corpuscle_Bath]

@Prolificisticationist

@unFaith

I remember finding philosophy through marijuana, but it only taught me the process in which to think. All of my philosophies were complete junk. Sure they seamed pretty “crazy” and great while I was high, but in a sober state of mind I had no idea what I was even writing about.

LOL! That’s funny as hell.

@unFaith

I finally quit marijuana and watched my friends continue to smoke and go no where. I knew I was heading in the same direction if I hadn’t quit. This was the best decision of my life.

This man is right.

Listen to him. Even though I just said I might smoke it if it were legal - really it’s just a guess. I have a lifelong friend who is every psych textbook’s definition of amotivational syndrome. The man’s cooked. He’s been a daily toker for decades and today you find him lackadaisical, absolutely hooked** by his own admission and quite unable to break free.

He has tried in earnest several times.

**Yes, marijuana is addictive. Psychological addiction is real.

Not denying pot is bad in some ways. In fact, pot kind of sucks. It’s okay as a recreational drug, but as far as mind expansion goes it’s limited at best. Almost every drug I do is some obscure legal potion that I make by mixing together psychadelic plants to make psychadelic potions. Obscure, ancient recipes. Marijuana IS addictive. I USED to smoke it quite a bit. It was harder to quit then cigarettes for me, that may just be because I smoked it a lot longer tho. I only smoked cigarettes for a very small portion of my adolesence. I still smoke it on some occasions, but it really dont do much for me…

[Alien_Corpuscle_Bath]

@Prolificisticationist

@Alien Corpuscle Bath

I resent the implication that just because I have a friend that has been to prison that makes me a certain type of person. […] My best friend has a degree in mathematics. Some or most of them do drugs as I do, but we certainly aren’t hippy losers like you seem to think we are.

Alien, I am sorry to have caused offense. You and Kissa just appeared to be advocating doing whatever the hell you wanted, “government be damned.” You seem not to appreciate that law and order are necessary in any civilized society. As far as the people you hang with–you really do have to be mindful of that. People get evicted from apartments over that stuff, man. Depending on what the laws of your state are, if you’re in the same car as some dude who has weed and it gets pulled over - then guess what? You’re genuinely at risk. I personally have known people in both examples who have had their lives wrecked and criminal records acquired just because of the people they associated with.

That is why I frown upon using pot or hanging with anyone who possesses it. My friend Joe? He’s my best friend! But hell, you can’t even be around that guy because every other friggin’ person who comes through his door has got some kind of dirt on them, or they’ll steal from you if you’re not looking - something. I am not saying this is you, or Kissa, or anyone else on the board for that matter - but it has been my experience that people who routinely break the law usually have more than one thing to hide.

There is also the social axiom that you are known by the friends you keep. So you see:

I am not against pot.

I am against its use or possession because it is against the law.

@Alien Corpuscle Bath

The government is supposed to represent the people in America, thus the term “representative democracy”. The problem is it doesn’t represent all the people, just the ones with money. Therein lies the problem. Who wants to be a model citizen in a country that does not represent them, is the most hypocritical and oppressive regime on the planet sitting on the largest stockpile of weapons of mass destruction, sells more weapons (even to extremely oppressive regimes against U.N. wishes) then any other country, murders innocent civilians in other countries, supports terrorist paramilitaries in other countries, plots assassination attempts such as car bombings that were specifically designed for maximum casualties, overthrows democratically elected governments in other countries and sets up dictatorships, supports genocide of small defenseless countries/provinces (namely East Timor), attacks other countries completely unprovoked while giving the U.N. the finger, is home to corprations that shit on the environment, put strange additives in the food, and flash subliminal messages on the screens of the T.V.'s their citizens watch, has polticians that lie all the time, is home to corporations such as Union Carbide who inflict massive amounts of casualties from industrial accidents caused by neglect then run off back home to never face any consequences for it at all, is home to corporations that screw over their own workers intentionally by cooking the books, throws their own citizens in jail for harmless activities such as smoking marijuana and therefor has one of the largest and fastest growing prison populations in the world (it is the largest % wise), neglects foreign treaties and defies international law in general, constantly throws elections, puts into office candidates that we didn’t vote for, and buys much of it’s voting machines (which can’t be double checked) from right wing political activist corporations? Not I. You go ahead and be that model citizen if that makes you feel good.

Heh… whew! I would never presume to know such a thing, but you appear to harbor an intense hatred for your own country. You are entitled to your views and your distrust, and your condemnation and criticisms. And regarding current events, I agree the invasion of Iraq and the cooked up intelligence was an historic sham. One that will cause us more violence, hatred, and mistrust for generations. I voted for Bush! I won’t be voting for him again! I’m not ignoring this. But you know what Alien: There is still no country like us on the face of the Earth - and I won’t be renouncing my citizenship any time soon, LOL. I really do think we all take our freedoms–which are always pain for in blood–too much for granted.

Are you an anarchist? You know - do you show up at the WTO conferences just to cause a bunch of turmoil and “promote” this “ideal” of lawlessness in the streets? I am not trying to label you, but whenever I see this amount of disillusionment; this much unbridled angst and disregard for the U.S. government and its laws, my eyebrows do twitch upward a bit.

Alien… You can understand this right?

Peace, brutha

I am not advocating doing whatever the hell you want, I am only advocating doing what you think is morally right, and what your intuition tells you to do. I advocate exploring your consciousness, not free for all murder sprees. That is anarchy. I just don’t think we need some big marble institution running every detail of our lives. Call that anarchy if you like. I believe the most powerful form of control is self-control. People need to learn to control themselves, and not depend on the big marble institutions to do it for them. They need to be guided in the right directions, not forced. Everyone knows the pitfalls associated with negative reinforcement. You being a psychologist should know what I’m talking about, John. We have the some of the strictest drug laws in the world, and look at our drug use rate. It’s not any better then anywhere else. In fact it’s worse then most places. America may not be the worst place you could live, but let’s face it, it’s not the best either. Look at Scandinavian countries. Just compare statistics. They have a lot more freedoms, and a lot less crimes.

As far as presuming things, I don’t presume anything. That long list of stuff that I mentioned that I have a problem with our social institutions for is all verifiable if you will take the time to look it up. It’s news you never hear of.

[Kissa]

@Prolificisticationist

Instead, I was responding to your contention that “no one decides not to smoke a joint because it’s not legal,” and that they refrain from smoking pot based on personal preference. That is just not the case.

I would say that a majority of people have tried marijuana at least once in their lives. Some continue to do it, and some do not. People get psychologically addicted to a substance because they have no self control. They begin to use it more and more often, and eventually find themselves unable to quit regardless of desire. These types of people would not have had the self control to stop using it in the first place.

Perhaps some people decide not to do marijuana simply because it’s not legal, but I just don’t buy that as an excuse for the majority of the population. Speeding is also illegal, how many people do you know that do only the speed limit and never go over that number? People obey the law for two reasons. They have no desire to do the illegal thing in the first place, or they fear the retribution if they were to get caught. The odds of getting caught in your own home if you maintain a low profile and do nothing but marijuana are extremely low, so there is no reason to obey the law if it is something that they desire.

–Kissa

[Kissa]

@Prolificisticationist

Alien, I am sorry to have caused offense. You and Kissa just appeared to be advocating doing whatever the hell you wanted, “government be damned.” You seem not to appreciate that law and order are necessary in any civilized society.

I’m going to wager a guess and say your age is probably from the 40-50 range. I’m also going to guess that Alien is in his twenties, as am I. Apologies to the author of the following quote, I read it in Newsweek a year ago or so, and I am unable to remember his name. “It is not the right of youth to question authority, it is their duty.”

What Alien was pointing out to you is that our government is pursuing policies that specifically are designed to increase the wealth of American citizens, mainly those in business. America does not stand for freedom and democracy anymore. Nor does it stand for dictatorships and opression. The only thing my country stands for is greed. America will take the side of whichever country will provide us with the most money. I think it’s sick and disgusting, and that trend is not just in our government. People in the entire country are accepting what the media spoon feeds them, because they are lazy, unwilling to accept responsibility for their own actions, and accept whatever the government says as “the right thing.” Whether the right thing is making marijuana illegal, murdering civilians in Iraq, or allowing other governments to take over sovereign countries simply because the sovereign nation can’t provide us with the same business that the first country can.

We live in times that need to change. The hippies of the 60’s are generally looked down upon and scorned for their beliefs and ideals, but at least they stood for something. I look at my generation and realize that most of them don’t even vote due to apathy. I see too few people willing to seek out the truth and enlighten others. We stand for nothing except corporate greed.

My best friend was murdered when he was 17 and I was 15 years old by two 20 year old men. The subject under discussion was simply that he was skateboarding in the wrong part of town. The two actually admitted that the only reason they attacked him was because he was white. When I was 18, I saw one of those men on the front page of the newspaper because he had been arrested for armed robbery. He did less than 3 years in prison for murder. This is something that needs to be changed. There are dozens of things in our society that need to be changed, and there are too few people willing to recognize this, and even fewer that are willing to speak up.

Alien may be vehement in his beliefs, but at least he stands for something. And that causes me to respect him.

–Kissa