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PostSubject: Re: Kriya thread toward clear purpose Kriya thread toward clear purpose - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Oct 19, 2012 10:00 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I think it was as much myself as James who broke the order the second time, even though it was technically James again who broke it. For I felt like I was breaking it when I made that post about, among other things, eternity. As for Capable’s idea of splitting threads, that had crossed my mind as well.
James, you say:
James S Saint wrote:
Amasopher wrote:
Unless lack of appeal and/or of acceptance threatens his own very experience, of course.
That would in fact be MY reasoning.
As I said, my concern is the immutability that maintains the momentum of that “eternal experiencing”.
As it turns out, other people are a major issue in the mutability of projects or groups like this.
Other interests might be along the lines of the proposed “improvement of the world”.
To me, that problem gets resolved shortly after you establish the immutability bit, without additional effort.
Perfect your own house and then maybe consider messing with other people’s lives.
My problem is precisely the step from the perfection of one’s own house to messing with other people’s lives. Now, that you say with such certainty that this problem gets resolved without additional effort after one perfects one’s own house suggests that you have experienced such (an) occurrence(s). If this is the case, can you put that experience into words?
kali maa jaap mantra {om aim hreem kleem chamundaye vichaye}
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PostSubject: Re: Kriya thread toward clear purpose Kriya thread toward clear purpose - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Oct 19, 2012 3:46 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
I am having serious doubts about my decision to allow for this break in the order.
Because: what may be resolution of an issue for one may be the introduction of twenty issues for the other.I fear that this new development is not in the interest of all participants and thus also0 not fo the group. I am waiting for their (dis)confirmation
Sorry about the chaos, this is very difficult to manage.
I am not sure if the rules had even been understood.
The rule was
- 1 post per round
- A round means: all 4 posters have made 1 posts (in no particular order)
James, did you break this rule deliberately?
Oops…
Sorry again. As I explained in PM, I can’t tell at what point you are intending what.
I thought that you were asking for confirmation on the prior issue and introducing the next.
So I gave my confirmation and addressed “the next”. I was expecting the same from others.
If there is a numbered order of who is first, second, third, and so on, I missed that.
But tell you what… I give up. From now on, how about just send me a PM letting me know when it is my turn. Don’t try to explain when my turn will be, just say, “Your up to talk about xxx”. I’ll take it from there. Until then I’ll stay quite.
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PostSubject: Re: Kriya thread toward clear purpose Kriya thread toward clear purpose - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Oct 20, 2012 4:57 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Never mind then - obviously it is not going to work if the rules are too complicated (for the record, they are in the OP).
We will stick to the idea I proposed recently, that we do it point per point, and I continue with the response James made to my proposition that we deal with the question of momentum and immutability, and our relationship to eternity.
Quote :
The two most powerful, immutable forces literally in the entire universe are;
- the Black Hole which has but two potential adversaries; other Black-Holes and
- Life.
Life has Perception, Sentience, and Influence. Both the Black-Hole and Life are made of much smaller and somewhat chaotic components within. Both tend to expire what they have and gain more with which to replace what is lost. The Black-Hole tends to gain more than it loses and thus grows to unimaginable size but loses its mobility in the process.
Life can perceive the Black-Hole, avoid its threats, and influence threats upon it, as it can with anything as long as it has the environment with which to do so. Life requires materials and tools with which to influence the materials into strategic positions whereas the Black-Hole merely absorbs everything into its internal chaos.
Although within life, just as within the Black-Hole, components compete with each other, the results of such devoted contention is the stability of the whole. Within both Life and the Black-Hole there is immeasurable momentum. The physical distinction is merely that one collects all humus into one central location while the other strategically distributes its components.
Both strive to maintain their fundamental structure and thus survive. That which maintains its harmony (its structure) cannot perish.
So I propose that since we are already a form of life that would be seriously threatened by anything resembling a Black-Hole type of entity, anything that could absorb and/or disintegrate us, that we form the group also as a form of life.
Make the group into the form of a living organism that is made of living organisms, namely us.
If accepted, how to do this isn’t difficult to explain (I hope).
I can confirm the principles exhibited here. All I have to add to this now is that it is evidently (evident also by the content of this post) crucial that we use a structural order in which all of us ‘naturally fit’. The structure proposed in the OP has been proven to not be the natural structure of this particular group.
The structural principle on which this group is based must be something we all agree on - according to my reading, what qualifies is the idea of isolating issues, confirming them, and moving on.
I’d be tempted to formulate some form of notation, but that will probably be too difficult to maintain as well.
The issue that is not yet resolved fully to me is
The experience of the eternal vis a vis eternal experience.
The latter pertains to momentum and immutability, the former to a philosophical state of mind/being.
Perhaps they are, in reality, the same. I can not confirm this yet.
I have elsewhere envisioned these combined as “absolutization of the bestowing virtue”. The terms is probably most relevant to Amasopher. I wonder it makes sense to him.
I am also curious to James’ response to Amasophers question.
All participants are from now on and indefinitely free to post at will.
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
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PostSubject: Re: Kriya thread toward clear purpose Kriya thread toward clear purpose - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue Oct 23, 2012 5:24 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I meant to post the following post in this thread, but accidentally posted it in the other Kriya thread.
To leave all the confusion behind us, I am going ahead and posit a set of statements for you all to kill or make stronger trying.
-
Something must exist because “nothing” excludes the active impossibility of something.
-
Self-valuing is not merely descriptive of entities that can be rationally declared to exist, but it is also implied by the nature of that all that can be observed and declared to exist, including ‘force’ or affectance - potential to change.
-
The smallest self-valuing is able only to value in terms of itself negatively. It’s “valuing” is a deflection of which it is not.
-
As two different self-valuings deflect nothingness, two things are created:
• Space, (the mutually deflected, mutual nothingess, rudimentary ‘value’)
• affectance - deflecting of positive not-selves.
For James specifically:
-
Affectance is self-valuing-interaction.
-
A self-valuing is even in ‘a grain of noise’ - as soon as noise starts to affect other noise, there is differentiation, and this implies ‘thingness’ something is differentiated from something.
-
The fact of difference precludes absolute dissolution.
Back to the main set:
-In the case of affectance, self-valuings value each other negatively in terms of their structural nature as deflectors, but they do behave similarly, and are thus perform similar actions. All deflect both nothingness, and each other.
-
What comes to exist like this is any geometrical form. The simplest form to imagine is the circle: all self-valuings deflect each other “to the side”, while simultaneously deflecting nothingess inward and outward. “Affectance fields” are circular, with the force distributed in the ‘border’. Inward it is ‘weak’.
-
Such organizations of nothingness-deflectings may emerge so as the come into contact with each other. Due to the quantity of affect of such organizations, the greater things that come into each others proximity are, the more different they are from each other, and stronger they are deflected. But in some cases, the deflected negative existence of a ‘sphere of affect’ is so great that smaller spheres are drawn to deflect it as well, and ‘join the circle’, the affect-field. In that case, the affect field, a ‘form’, grows and is able to absorb even greater ‘others’.
-
The deflection of nothingness is the first priority. In the image of the deflection imprinted on itself, the self-valuing recognizes itself. This creates the terms of it’s self-valuing’ - it’s standard of value.
-
Such a standard can be recognized by other entities, and deflected (negatively valued) as well.
-
Two co-deflecting self-valuings “come to terms”, they positively value each other in terms of their own self-valuing (their deflecting nothingess), but as negative. They repel each other while positively ‘recognizing’ the object of negative valuation.
-
This is why when we value in terms of our self-valuing; when we value, we ‘push’ - the greater the ‘fight’, the greater the resistance to nothingness. We seek to overpower, but first and foremost we seek to engage, that whichever ‘speaks to us’, is also inevitably that which has the power to absorb us.
-
Survival as a form depends on capacity to translate that which is appropriated in the circle of affect in terms of the pre-existing form. “Selective forms” remain, other forms are respectively dissolved or transformed into selective forms. Sometimes selective forms are overpowered by far greater, but far less selective forms.
-
The more selective a form is in what it can ‘use’ in terms of deflecting nothingness, the more capable it is to resist change.
-
The more selective a form is, the more specific it’s terms by which it values, and the more specific it’s self-valuing.
-
Man is a supremely selective form. The more selective man is, the more we can speak of a ‘self’.
-
Becoming conscious of being as self-valuing means: establishing a finalized Being. It means to have defeated the chance of being transformed by the very nature of being (deflecting non-being) itself - “imprinting being on becoming”.
There are much more consequences to draw here but I can now just manage a few observations on morality and custom:
-
From this perspective, morality is no longer a matter of adopting custom to ensure survival but risking unseen compromise of structural integrity, but of either inventing means to expand ones realm of influence (to attempt to transform the world according to ones self-value, to be able to value it more), or, where conditions allow it, simply maintaining oneself.
-
Buddha realized the first nature of being - deflecting non being - nirvana as “being nor non-being”, means “affect nor non being”. It is however, being in the sense of deflection (“transcendental clarity”). It does not however contain the power to defend itself or resist the force of other structures from incorporating it. Kung fu has arisen to remain transcendently self-valuing and resist that which is to be valued as negative. Yoga is the simple resisting of resistance - dissolving the circle of affect (society, the roles one has to play to ‘defend the family/country’ etc) in order to ‘face the void alone’. But it is still relatively affective, since the human body doesn’t dissolve as long as all of it’s atoms and subatomic instances affect independently ‘attain nirvana’.
-
"Spiritualized “martial” art but also dance is therefore more ‘peaceful’ toward the fact of existence, and more effective in maintaining structural integrity from which to deflect the void.
-
All temples and religious orders represent spiritualized martial art, selectively organized deflection of the void.
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
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PostSubject: Re: Kriya thread toward clear purpose Kriya thread toward clear purpose - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue Oct 23, 2012 6:46 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Amasopher wrote:
My problem is precisely the step from the perfection of one’s own house to messing with other people’s lives. Now, that you say with such certainty that this problem gets resolved without additional effort after one perfects one’s own house suggests that you have experienced such (an) occurrence(s). If this is the case, can you put that experience into words?
Well, this gets into How it is done. In effect it is the topic of how to “mess with other people’s lives”… without effort.
Is that really the priority?
In general terms, that subject is introduced in the Science thread Chemistry through a lens of perspectivism
But if the aim is merely to mess with other people without even knowing what your are yourself, then there is a problem.
I think we need to focus on what we want to be ourselves and what it takes to ensure that, not what we might want to do to others. If all we want to be is the power to dominate, control, or “mess with” others… that is a problem.
This issue is addressed here… The Equation for Space;
Quote :
.
.
.
A man once asked, “what do you do with 300 million insane people?” I now must ask, “what do you do with 6.5 billion of them?” Let them see the futures they propose? Will that bring sanity among them? Will that inspire true rationality in Man for perhaps the first time? “Close enough” is going to make him extinct. That part is already foreseeable.
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PostSubject: Re: Kriya thread toward clear purpose Kriya thread toward clear purpose - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Oct 24, 2012 5:48 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
- Something must exist because “nothing” excludes the active impossibility of something.
If “nothing” excludes the active impossibility of something, it also excludes any possibility of something, and therefore does not necessitate its existence.
James S Saint wrote:
Amasopher wrote:
My problem is precisely the step from the perfection of one’s own house to messing with other people’s lives. Now, that you say with such certainty that this problem gets resolved without additional effort after one perfects one’s own house suggests that you have experienced such (an) occurrence(s). If this is the case, can you put that experience into words?
Well, this gets into How it is done. In effect it is the topic of how to “mess with other people’s lives”… without effort.
Is that really the priority?
In general terms, that subject is introduced in the Science thread Chemistry through a lens of perspectivism
But if the aim is merely to mess with other people without even knowing what your are yourself, then there is a problem.
I think we need to focus on what we want to be ourselves and what it takes to ensure that, not what we might want to do to others. If all we want to be is the power to dominate, control, or “mess with” others… that is a problem.
This issue is addressed here… The Equation for Space;
Quote :
.
.
.
A man once asked, “what do you do with 300 million insane people?” I now must ask, “what do you do with 6.5 billion of them?” Let them see the futures they propose? Will that bring sanity among them? Will that inspire true rationality in Man for perhaps the first time? “Close enough” is going to make him extinct. That part is already foreseeable.
I do not at all want to mess with other people’s lives before having perfected my own house. I just do not see a good reason for one’s messing with them after one has perfected it.
By the way, I do indeed think the problem gets resolved without additional effort after one perfects one’s own house. But in my view, the messing with other people’s lives is then an unintended side-effect of the being perfect of one’s house.
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PostSubject: Re: Kriya thread toward clear purpose Kriya thread toward clear purpose - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Oct 24, 2012 6:16 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Amasopher wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:
- Something must exist because “nothing” excludes the active impossibility of something.
If “nothing” excludes the active impossibility of something, it also excludes any possibility of something, and therefore does not necessitate its existence.
“Nothingness” offers nothing in either direction; to cause something, or to prevent something.
“Nothingness” is a “square-circle”, an irrational concept, easily imagined, but logically invalid.
An infinite space of blackness is what is typically imagined. But that isn’t actually “absolute nothingness” in that it has volume. And then because it has volume, it has too many points within it for them all to be infinitely identical (that gets into the cardinalities of infinity). Infinite homogeneity is impossible. It is due to that situation that affecting (existence) is always happening. If at any point, there truly were no potential for affect, that point would not “exist” because it has no affect (the very definition of existing).
Amasopher wrote:
I do not at all want to mess with other people’s lives before having perfected my own house. I just do not see a good reason for one’s messing with them after one has perfected it.
By the way, I do indeed think the problem gets resolved without additional effort after one perfects one’s own house. But in my view, the messing with other people’s lives is then an unintended side-effect of the being perfect of one’s house.
That all sounds good to me.
But to me, nothing is intentionally unintentional.
If I know that I am going to have affect, I consider what that affect might be before I infect the world with it… that is, if I can. Anything done has affect, else it isn’t doing anything.
My intent would be that the group merely form into what it seriously must be to truly survive in an immutable way. The consequences to society will take their own somewhat predictable form.
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PostSubject: Re: Kriya thread toward clear purpose Kriya thread toward clear purpose - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Oct 25, 2012 3:25 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
If the group is to be a living organism in itself, there are three fundamental components to any living entity;
- Perception
- Mind
- Influence
In this, “mind” refers to the entirety of neurological activity.
Thus the group must have these faculties as a group. Each individual in the group already has them. As a group, they represent three “departments”;
- Research
- Analysis and direction
- Activism
It is typically best if a member is in charge of each of those departments, but each department can easily grow into a great many.
This thread was a first attempt at a “mind”. It isn’t the way I would have chosen, but it was a start. My career was “intelligence design”, so I have a good idea of what I am talking about concerning construct of mind.
For a mind to form, there must be a structure involved as a goal to achieve and/or maintain and protect. These three departments and their connectivity represents the fundamental structure to be achieved, maintained, and protected. Once established, the group will be a fundamental living entity.
A mind is no more than a logical assembly of algorithms that processes “input” (the Perception data) into a “map” representation of the groups situation in terms of “self-valuing” or maintaining itself (PHT, Perception of Hopes and Threats).
At the point where a map is established, the entity is conscious. Consciousness is “Remote Recognition”, an actively updated map.
The mind department then weighs the hopes and threats (cost/benefit ratio) such as to form a directive. The Activist department then acts upon whatever that balance indicates.
Because this is a continual process, if structured properly, it never stops.
Any questions concerning that much?
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PostSubject: Re: Kriya thread toward clear purpose Kriya thread toward clear purpose - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Oct 26, 2012 12:38 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I do not really doubt that such a group would be possible, and is in some way to follow from our efforts.
I would need to be able to answer one question before I can precisely understand and address your assertions above: What separates a living self-valuing from an inanimate one, such as an atom?
Relating: how can a living entity be imperishable?
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
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PostSubject: Re: Kriya thread toward clear purpose Kriya thread toward clear purpose - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Oct 26, 2012 7:49 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
I do not really doubt that such a group would be possible, and is in some way to follow from our efforts.
I would need to be able to answer one question before I can precisely understand and address your assertions above: What separates a living self-valuing from an inanimate one, such as an atom?
Relating: how can a living entity be imperishable?
Strategic defense in the form of adaptation.
I don’t want to get into quibbling over what defines “life”, but the most operative and relevant concept involves the strategies of defense. It is often thought that growth is what defines life. But growth is merely one of the many strategies and one that is incipiently dangerous. The single most predominate error throughout the history of homosapian has been that of not understanding when and how much to grow. The human body understands and behaves appropriately. The human mind fails. And it seems at this point, that error is going to be the final straw that ended homosapian entirely.
It isn’t so much being a living organism that matters. What matters is consciousness from which strategy can be utilized. As a Nietzschian, you should be ultimately attentive to this issue. Consciousness is the recognition of the remote situation. It is that recognition that allows for adaptation to the situation. Such adaptation is what life is about. But random or careless adaptation such as to create a possible evolution is the act of the mindless and sacrifices the essence of the progenitor.
To be imperishable, one must maintain the ability to adapt without losing essence. That requires consciousness, verification, and very careful strategy, especially these days.
By the current scheme, all who cannot be controlled into the world system of governance are to be gotten rid of simply because they insist on a socialistic domination which inherently requires a limited number of controlled subjects. For the past 50 years, it has mostly been about “population control” which largely is all about reducing it to controlled numbers. At the moment Science proclaims that the population MUST be reduced, not really because of the lack of resources, but because too many will get “out of hand”. Technology has offered them more grace. But technology also offers the most incipient danger to the species.
A living organism is an adapting organism in one way or another. It is critical that the means for adaptation be very, very carefully considered. Merely trial and error will not due any longer.
So in short, to be imperishable one must actively out maneuver entropy.
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PostSubject: Re: Kriya thread toward clear purpose Kriya thread toward clear purpose - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Oct 27, 2012 9:26 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
.
Just a reminder;
Quote :
This public forum has been set up as a space for a productive development of ideas in philosophy as well as in other subjects of thought. The aim of Before The Light is to promote and secure the possibility for active, ambitious and free thinking. A corollary of this is that the thought engendered here is intended to be powerful, potent and vital with respect to its various consequences and necessitated implications. We aim to encouraging the development of powerful, direct and subtle approaches to the various potentialities latent to consciousness and the human condition in all its myriad forms, including among these the capacity and will to envision and thus directly influence and shape the future conditions of humanity.
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PostSubject: Re: Kriya thread toward clear purpose Kriya thread toward clear purpose - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Oct 27, 2012 11:08 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
When I started this thread I was convinced it could amount to something. But this expectation was really based, in large part, on the form I had given it, as described in the OP, and the commitment to address each others questions about assertions we make in detail. Neither of these two plans has been carried out. If we want to have any chance of this thread of which the participants have dispersed, coming together again, the order must be restored and we must all of us commit to address precisely all the questions posed in response to our assertions.
So as a last resort, I make this, again, a new round, and reinstate the original structural order,
where every poster has the right to one post per round*
where all questions must be addressed in detail
*to be clear: I have now posted in this round. This means that James, Amasopher, and Capable get to post one post each. In no particular order.
Once I, James, Amasopher, and Capable have each posted one post, then all four of us have the right to one other post. Again in no particular order. And so on, round after round.
This is my last attempt to resuscitate this thread - I suggest we keep to the structural setup and content-regulations, so that the thread maintains it’s value to all.
We can have no one deciding that questions asked to him are irrelevant. We must assume that someone only asks a question because it is relevant to this person who asks it.
I apologize for changing the rules halfway because they weren’t being followed. That was weak and the result was predictable. I hope that there is still the will to continue.
Make the most of your posts!
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
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PostSubject: Re: Kriya thread toward clear purpose Kriya thread toward clear purpose - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 11, 2012 5:38 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
It is with a great deal of respect for you all that I close this thread now. There are other projects on the horizon.
I thank you for your efforts - as modest the steps we have made here may seem, they have been significant.
