Telos

[phoneutria]

MAGA is nothing but nostalgia.
Rekindling the glory of the 50s.
Thing is, things change.

[Fixed_Cross]

@phoneutria

@Fixed Cross

Yes, I might disagree with Parodites about the US being the first nation erected on the principles of logic.
But it is the first to have a Constitution which explicitly claims to derive individual human rights from nature, and it achieved by far the most expansive materialization of such rights.
Abolition of slavery was performed by a stark believer in the logics of the Constitution (cynics are dogs), and in this the US went farther than Athens ever went.

I don’t really understand how a rejection of the value of what these men designed will help any kind of thinking achieve any merit or dignity. I know it is a trillion times easier to spit on human achievement than to advance it, but must things always be the easy way? Are the intellectually comatose so very appealing that we must do all to impress them by attempts at imitation? Or could philosophy be warlike, and accomplish the perfection of human liberty…

I don’t think that anyone in their right mind would reject the value of what these men have designed. I’m addressing the subject of you OP, directly.

When did holding a system to logic become equivalent with spitting at it?

Oh thats what you were doing?
The “lady” who uses filthy ad homs about someones family to protect herself from having to read, much less think, she is “holding a system up to logic”…

Thats beautiful Phoneutria. Just grand.

[phoneutria]

You’re going to leave it at that?

@pho

It is a contradiction for rights to be at the same time god-given|natural, and arbitrary.

[Fixed_Cross]

Oh no, you can blurt random quasi-statements all you like. And Ill keep very busy ignoring them.

[iambiguous]

@phoneutria

MAGA is nothing but nostalgia.
Rekindling the glory of the 50s.
Thing is, things change.

Here I am in complete agreement.

But, for the moral and political objectivists among us, what doesn’t change is their commitment to their own assumptions about what does make America great. It’s always their own “telos” that, uh, trumps all the others.

Things change, sure, but they’re on top of that. It’s only a matter of what teleological font they prefer to back their own rendition of “greatness” up: God or No God.

If No God, then deontology, political ideology or nature.

Either way in regard to any particular instance of conflicting value judgements, heads they win, tails you lose.

You being, among other things, those fucking liberals!!

Right?

[Fixed_Cross]

Whats certain is that such slaves as you do not deserve the gifts of the founding fathers - but it was never about deserving. They gave you so much more than you’ll ever be able to deserve - and thats part of whats so beautiful about it.
Lofty men.

[phoneutria]

There is no greater confirmation of my argument than the fact that on this respect, the constitution itself has been amended.

So go on and ignore me. Keep your Hero story. It is sufficiently edifying for boys without an identity.

[Fixed_Cross]

Im more of a Nietzschean, than Parodites, or than the founding fathers - I can pretty well see that what they bestowed on you people is much more than you are worth.
Still I like this idea of axiomatic rights – IF we have any people-favouring justice system at all, it better start with axiomatic rights or it cant start anywhere at all.

[iambiguous]

@Fixed Cross

Whats certain is that such slaves as you do not deserve the gifts of the founding fathers - but it was never about deserving. They gave you so much more than you’ll ever be able to deserve - and thats part of whats so beautiful about it.
Lofty men.

A classic “argument”, the truth [certainty] of which, is contained only in whatever he means by these particular words placed in this particular order.

In regard to what particular context, pertaining to what particular folks construed to be slaves not deserving of what particular gift from the Founding Fathers?

As that either does or does not relate to what he himself presumes makes America “great”.

[Fixed_Cross]

What do you say you two geniuses go figure it out amongst yourselves?

[iambiguous]

@Fixed Cross

What do you say you two geniuses go figure it out amongst yourselves?

No can do. She as “foed” me. Apparently, no one has more contempt for me here than she and tab do.

So, you will either pursue this with me “out in the world” of masters and slaves, or it’s heads you win, tails I lose.

[phoneutria]

@Fixed Cross

Whats certain is that such slaves as you do not deserve the gifts of the founding fathers - but it was never about deserving. They gave you so much more than you’ll ever be able to deserve - and thats part of whats so beautiful about it.
Lofty men.

They gave me nothing.

@John Adams

As to your extraordinary Code of Laws, I cannot but laugh. We have been told that our Struggle has loosened the bands of Government every where. That Children and Apprentices were disobedient – that schools and Colledges were grown turbulent – that Indians slighted their Guardians and Negroes grew insolent to their Masters.

But your Letter was the first Intimation that another Tribe more numerous and powerfull than all the rest were grown discontented. – This is rather too coarse a Compliment but you are so saucy, I wont blot it out.

Depend upon it, We know better than to repeal our Masculine systems. Altho they are in full Force, you know they are little more than Theory. We dare not exert our Power in its full Latitude. We are obliged to go fair, and softly, and in Practice you know We are the subjects. We have only the Name of Masters, and rather than give up this, which would compleatly subject Us to the Despotism of the Peticoat…

@Abigail Adams

I can not say that I think you very generous to the Ladies, for whilst you are proclaiming peace and good will to men, Emancipating all Nations, you insist upon retaining an absolute power over Wives.

But you must remember that Arbitrary power is like most other things which are very hard, very liable to be broken and notwithstanding all your wise Laws and Maxims we have it in our power not only to free our selves but to subdue our Masters, and without violence throw both your natural and legal authority at our feet.

[Fixed_Cross]

I - Well I guess that gives you some credit.

A classic “argument”, the truth [certainty] of which, is contained only in whatever he means by these particular words placed in this particular order.

Note I wasn’t making an argument.
I was blissfully abstaining from making an argument for a change, since arguments have a tendency to be shat on by the illiterate goonsquad and Im frankly tired of these all too typical humans.
Which leads me to…

In regard to what particular context, pertaining to what particular folks construed to be slaves not deserving of what particular gift from the Founding Fathers?

Its simple. Lefties deserve a properly Leftie government. I know governments like my work too well for me to ever get in trouble with them, left or right. Im lucky like that. And Im deciding now to let my luck ride.

As that either does or does not relate to what he himself presumes makes America “great”.

If Trumps victory has shown anything it is that America, save for Trump and his brave, hardline supporters, is pretty damned far from being Great. Probably no country has so many fanatical illiterates.

[Fixed_Cross]

Ive always strained myself to get myself in trouble with governments, from a very deep seated moral sense of duty, noting I was usually the only one who was even aware of what governments are dong and, taking he suffering of people on myself.
But this whole recent episode here, which had people on a philosophy site explicitly turning against rights, literacy and other gains from the enlightenment, has made me stop and pause.

Why do I fight for these hordes?
Fuck it man. I quit this whole philanthropic business.

Im a new born misanthrope.

[phoneutria]

Fixed, what are you reading?
Who is fighting against rights, literacy and other gains from the enlightenment?
Are you talking about other forum members, or about the demons in your head?

[Pedro_I_Rengel (PZR)]

"Here I am in complete agreement. "

Holy christ.

The Trumpster, still performing miracles.

Phoneut:

Snark does not thinking make.

It does make a multi-trillion dollar college business, though.

[Pedro_I_Rengel (PZR)]

@phoneutria

MAGA is nothing but nostalgia.
Rekindling the glory of the 50s.
Thing is, things change.

No, I disagree.

[Pedro_I_Rengel (PZR)]

@Fixed Cross

Ive always strained myself to get myself in trouble with governments, from a very deep seated moral sense of duty, noting I was usually the only one who was even aware of what governments are dong and, taking he suffering of people on myself.
But this whole recent episode here, which had people on a philosophy site explicitly turning against rights, literacy and other gains from the enlightenment, has made me stop and pause.

Why do I fight for these hordes?
Fuck it man. I quit this whole philanthropic business.

Im a new born misanthrope.

I been fucking telling you for years, Jesus Christ.

[Pedro_I_Rengel (PZR)]

These people are animals.

[Pedro_I_Rengel (PZR)]

And let’s stop calling it Enlightenment, shzzal we?

The American Independence was post-enlightenment.

It was…

no but why fuck it up.