Satanism

Philosophy Forums Religion and Spirituality
21

Doc:

You know I’m talking shit because you can handle it. I do not disrespect you in the least bit, hell I don’t even know you. I do know, however, that regardless of your Satanism, I think you are right more than you are wrong, about most anything you post here at ILP. Granted you don’t post much, what you do post I find mostly agreeable.

I just wonder if you could practice your principles without all the effects, if, perhaps, doing so might save you some trouble. I don’t like the fact that you call out your virtues “in the name of” something. I think that takes away your initiative to expand, to incorporate new ideas that, in maintaing a Satanic format, would not be considered.

Satanism is very aggressive if only because everyone else finds it so abysmal, so extreme. If your message to the world is to indulge in the self, become strong and confident, rejoice our natural desires and expressions of power, I should think that a medium for exchanging such information wouldn’t be so trenchant.

You are a champion of individual rights and privileges, yet as a spokesman for such a message your platform seems a bit harsh. I suspect that if you truely felt that your principles were deserved human rights, you might find a way to mediate them without the loss of “potential clientele.” Sure, you aren’t obligated to spread some tablet of beliefs, but at the same time, if those beliefs are so important, you might actually need to feel obligated to champion such beliefs and spread them as gracefully as possible.

I can’t imagine you saying to the world: “you deserve this and I can help you get it, but part of what is deserved is the right of nonobligation.”

My final point is not that what you believe might be a manufactured contingency, or a sadistic practice, of that you’re in fact correct about what you believe is virtuous. That’s neither here nor there. However, if you’ve touched upon something important for humanity, then I think you should be somewhat willing to find a more tolerable vehicle in which to carry it.

Simply said, when facing the world with these gems of wisdom, don’t scare it away.

Eh, no sir, I try not to work as much as I can…or, uh, can’t rather… you know what I mean. I’m waiting for my fantasy, my proletarian benevolent dictatorship, you see, where my work efforts will be for the whole of humanity, where everyone is equal. From there, through a period of re-educating the world, democracy will establish itself without its side-kick “capitalism.” No, I don’t know how this is going to work yet, its still on the drawing board. Got any ideas let me know. Until then, sir, I’ll live a simple life outside of the machine.

So turn the kitchen light off, kid.

[grin]

22

Ahh, that’s better. I only toned my post as rudely as I did in response to the tone of your post…in truth I have generally found your opinions to be agreeable and well thought out. With that said:

That is what it comes down to, I see your point, and I’ll adress it.

Satanism, as it is, is quite elitist. If you understand, and agree with, the philosophy, fine…take the name if not, fine…don’t. To be a Satanist requires a certain set of criteria, one of which is taking the label.The label, naturally, appeals more to those more in line with the ‘darker’ nature of aestetics.And although Satanism champions humanistic and self empowering ideals, we certainly do not claim ownership of any of them.
We make no attempt at trying to ‘spread the word’ or enlighten anyone, because for the most part we feel that if everyone will follow their own path anyway, and most people prefer their illusions. Furthermore,the world where everyone is a Satanist is not a desireable world for the Satanist. Why?
Sheep are far easier to herd than wolves. This may sound extremely selfish…but that is only because it is :slight_smile:

23

yes, it appears to be a movement full of people who appear quite wise in their own eyes and seem to enjoy deify themselves with such unbased claims as “i am a god”. a god who will, no doubt, one day have use a bed pan and have a nurse wipe for him.

also the goal of “exercising the beast within” could quite easily be acheived if you grew up with a family of dogs.

here doggy, go fetch.

24

Do you ever catch Hell, if you’ll pardon the pun Dr.S, from real Satanists? I mean the ones that truly worship the Dark Lord of Hell? Seems that guys like King Diamond would take exception to you using Satans good name (er, bad name, I mean) in vain.

25

Heh. Real, Satanists, eh?
You mean the ones that existed prior to 1966? And Who would those folks be? If you mean the half-witted devil worshippers then you are talking about angry christians…and yes I deal with angry christians of all sorts :slight_smile:
The christians were in the habit of throwing that label onto anything they didn’t aprove of, and by some christian accounts 3/4 of the planet are ‘satanists’
No, prior to 1966 there /were/ no satanists, at least none that left any record.
There may have and still be groups or individuals that practice some twisted form of christianity, but those are christians.
Of course, looking about the internet at all these ‘traditional’ satanic sites could lead one to think otherwise, but the kicker is ‘traditional’ satanism didn’t exist before 1995 . this is pretty much strictly an internet phenomenon…
Pretty young ‘tradition’ And of course, no two of them can agree on any tenets or philosophy other than ‘teh devil iz c00l’ and maybe some shit lifted from LaVey
Where as we real Satanists have been out there in the world doing what we do for almost 40 years.
I am the closest you are going to get to a ‘real’ Satanist, sir.

ps - King Diamond is a member of the CoS, and is certainly no devil worshipper.

26

Hell/The Fruits Of Labor. But to me the Devil is just the thing in your life that you wish you could escape through death.

27

What’s CoS? I’m not very versed in such things, but he does claim to be able to make a coffee table levitate with his Satanic powers.

I think you’re extraordinarily niave if you think no devil worship existed before 1966. Hell, you’d be naive to think none existed before 1066. There were many Devil worshipping cults in the milleniums before LeVay was conceived. At any rate, why do you consider all people who actually worship Satan to be idiots and fools? :confused: At least they’re actually worshipping the Devil. You seem to be using the term to shock people when you apparently don’t even believe in Satan. You could call youself a “Santa-ist” just as validly, but that wouldn’t be “sexy.” You arbitrarily chose the word Satan, but it’s a complete non sequitor.

FYI, many scholars think that “Satan” is a being that predates the J/C Bible, and many religions have a being that corresponds to the Devil. Christianity & Judaism may have incorporated this ‘being’ into themselves the same way they borrowed from other pagan religions.

There are many people who actually worship Satan as described in the Judeo-Christian religion. Are they idiots? There’s at least as much evidence that they’re right as there is that you’re right. But at least their Satanism is honest, whether you think it’s misguided or not. Your “Satanism-without-any-Satan” seems like a timid affectation, just a bait-and-switch aimed at impressing the Dungeons and Dragons set. Or am I missing something essential? :confused:

28

CoS=Church od Satan
You obviously haven’t read a thing I said, and I don’t feel the need to repeat myself. I already adressed why the name isn’t arbitrary.
I already pointed out that devil worship may have existed, but there IS NO RECORD OF IT, so it may as well have not.
Nobody claims to have ‘satanic powers’, I have already adressed what ‘magic’ means to a satanist.
And levitating a coffee table?
Where do you get this drivel.

The characture you are thinking of is Set, which does predate christianity by about 15 thousand years, but so what? You don’t seem to grasp that ‘worship’ is the antithesis of Satanism. Faith is what get’s in the way of finding facts. Devil worshippers aren’t ‘more honest’, they are exactly as honest as anyone else that believes through faith.
Absolutely dishonest. There is NO evidence ‘they are right’ just as there isn’t for any other worship-cult. (ie christianity, islam, hinduism, pretty much all of em…)
Satanism adresses reality as it IS and makes no extrordinary claims, therefore REQUIRES NO EVIDENCE.
It is not a level playing feild between the two, not by a longshot.

29

Dr. S,

I assume when you mention faith and belief in this context you are refering to faith and belief in a deity. However, from what I have gathered over time from your posts, you are a staunch atheist. However, both theists and atheists require faith in their beliefs. You will no doubt claim as you have done before, that there exists no solid empirical proof of the existence of a deity etc etc. However, there is no solid empirical proof of the non-existence of a deity.

So then, unless you have the Theory of Everything tucked away somewhere in your room and have your empirical proof also sitting there with it, you will need some faith in your atheist beliefs. Before you start saying that it is not rational to have faith in a deity, atheism is the rational choice etc., rationality has nothing to do with it. You cannot be completely certain that the atheist, empirical reality you believe in is correct. So therefore you also have faith.

Our view of reality is only as good as our understanding of it and our understanding of it is in a constant state of flux. If we go back to the 19th centaury it would have been rational to believe that the universe was filled with a substance called ether. As we all know, that turned out to be a false belief, but no doubt many people had faith in that belief as well. In a hundred years time, our current understanding of the world around us (and thus our reality) may also be proved false. Therefore, once again you are having faith in your perception of reality and this seems to contradict the first quote I have presented.

Its seems to me that the problem with being an ego worshipper is that the inflated ego of one who believes they know so much, has been so often burst.

30

Do you know who King Diamond is? I got that “drivel,” as it most likely is, straight from his mouth. {He’s a Satanic ‘death metal’ singer, for lack of a better explaination, and a very good one!- he sang for Merciful Fate and has been a solo act for many years- FYI, if anyone cares. }. I’ve never seen him levitate the table, but on a philosophy site it’s dangerous to assume a negative simply due to my own lack of positives. Maybe he only does it when he’s alone. Maybe he’s bashful? At any rate, unless he’s modified his religious convictions lately, he’s pretty much an “actually worships the Dark Prince” sort of guy.

You can certainly bury your head in the sand if you like, but since even our current J/C tradition dates back about 5,000 years you’d have to admit the chances that no one thought to worship Satan before the 1960’s are pretty slim! Pity no one thought to document it to your satisfaction, 'cause now you can’t see it from your house.

The thing I find amusing is the way you deliberately pick symbols that Christians find to be negative, like the pentagram, and put a little guy with the one red eye in your sig line ( so ominous! :astonished: ). The whole presentation is very 1st Edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons. Yet since it seems as much as anything to be a juvenile rebellion against Christianity, it’s as irrevelevant to me the institution it hopes to subvert. If it feels good’ it is good - wow, that’s heady stuff. Let me grab my pencil. Your brand of “Satanism” pretty much manages to take Nietzsche, existentialism & humanism and dumb it down to a third grade level while adding not a whit of original thought. It’s the Spinal Tap approach to philosophy.

I’m being far too flippant, I realize. My apologies; I only just realized by your response that you take your Satanism thing somewhat seriously. I had honestly thought you were playing the role for yucks. Generally I don’t try to be an evil bastard, so let me just say in summation that it seems no sillier to me than a good many other religions I’ve seen. And if your Bible can fit on the back of a deck of playing cards, more’s the better. The world has too goddamn much Holy Writ as it is.

31

Hey Phaedrus, uh yeah i can levitate a table too. I’m doing it right now, yeah yeah, all alone of course. Hahaha! It’s amazing how so many people can do so many extraordinary things without providing any sort of proof. But it’s more amazing how many fools believe them.

Dr. S, feel free to go off on his disrespectfull self. However he did make one sort of point. You say Satanism is basically a new age religion, so why do the followers not pick less offensive symbols and labels to Christians? Is there a personal vendetta? I will admit that i’ve done little research on Satanism, but i understand fairly well from your posts how much it differs from the stereotype that plagues non Christian beliefs. It just seems to me that if one truly believed they were of a higher place than others then they wouldn’t need to crush them to obtain that power, they’d simply rise above through natural selection while the weak slowly died out. So is it more of a pleasure trip to bring them down?

Or perhaps we’ve got it backwards. Maybe it’s not Satanists that are using symbols that are abhorrent to Christianity, maybe it’s the Christians that are turning everything they don’t like into things of evil. A pentagram is often related to simply mysticism such as in Wicca or what was it called, Seal of Solomon? But somewhere down the line Christians labeled it as pure evil.

So many of us misunderstand Satanism, so Dr. S, could you enlighten us more on the subject? I know you don’t feel the need, but it might help unshackle our bonds of ignorance. As you’ve stated before, the net is littered with a plethora of wacked out views. Too many people ask the obligatory question “What is such and such religion”, so i ask a better question, “What does Satanism mean to you?”. Fret not, i’m not here to convert, just to observe.

32

Hi.

NoelyG,

Primarily, but not entirely. Faith in anything (faith being unjustified belief) is counterproductive to progress on an individual level.
Once you are /sure/ you have the answer, you stop looking…right?

Atheist in the sense I lack theism.
I lack a belief in god/s, but I do not believe in the nonexistance of god/s
Surely you see the difference.
X and not X can’t exist at the same time, right? :stuck_out_tongue:

An atheist, according to the oxford dictionary, is one who lacks a belief in god or gods. To be an atheist, contrary to popular ‘belief’, one does not have to place faith in the fact there is no god, he simply must lack a belief in said god/s.

That is worthless reasoning. There is no evidence of the ‘non-existance’ of anything

As we learn, we also debunk and replace bad information. Yes, so what?
But even in your ‘ether’ example is one of people believing by faith, because they had no emperical data to support it.
And for the record, I need no faith in my perception of reality.
Things that actually exist dont require faith.

I didn’t claim to know anything. All we have is opinion, and I am stating mine the same as you are. Feel free to attempt to ‘burst’ my ego, but I won’t hold my breath on any results.

Phaedrus,

Yes, I know who KD is, big fan. No, he has never worshipped the devil, and he is not a ‘worship the dark prince’ sort of guy. He is a showman, however, and uses the devil as a mascot of sorts.
For the record, his solo stuff is way better than merciful fate :stuck_out_tongue:

Perhaps, but my point was there had never been an above ground organization or religion called Satanism before 1966. PS Satanists don’t worship the devil, mmk?

Ahh, symbology. The ‘christians’ find /anything/ that isn’t christian to be negative…so what…should we use a cross then?
There is meaning and philospohy behind the symbol of the pentagram, you know. It wasn’t an arbitrary decision.

Again, I have already gone over this. christianity isn’t relevant to Satanism in any other way than that it is the most popular and common representation of anti-humanism in our society. And I really don’t give a rats ass what you think of the aestetics, so fuck off.

Really? Satanists, at least, research and learn about a thing before attempting to discredit it. You should follow suit.
Satanism is heavily influenced by other philosophies, sure, but is certainly it’s own thing apart from any other.
Although Nietzsche is one of the influences on Satanism, he certainly isn’'t the ONLY one. Satanic philosophy comes from many other sources. Ragnar Redbeard, Ayn Rand, Nietzsche, Mark Twain, Stephen Hawking, the list goes on. but primarily the philosophy belongs to LaVey, as it was he who codified it all into what it is.
Guess what? All philosophy and religion comes from somewhere, they are not created in a vacuum. The fact that you would try to discredit something as unoriginal based on the fact it had outside influence is almost comical but definately nonsensical.

Only because it is the only philosophy that is rational to me. I am a very rational man, and in 12 years nobody has been able to change my mind, or show me a logical flaw in the philosophy.

33

To say that something is rational to you, and yet, requires no evidence, is a contradiction as I understand the terms ‘rational’ and ‘evidence’. If something doesn’t require evidence, it must not be making any claims, and if it’s not making any claims, it can’t be (ir)rational. That nobody has been able to change your mind or show you a flaw in your philosophy in 12 years isn’t something I would brag about, either. Honestly, here in ILP I’ve never seen you make a positive claim about anything- certainly not anything that is exclusively satanic.
If you are as close to a ‘real satanist’ as it gets, Dr. S, then it seems that ‘real satanists’ have to spend about 80% of their time talking to the public in reclarifying what Satanism is not. That alone is a pretty good argument that the symbolism is inappropriate- unless, of course, the symbolism was chosen to confuse people or for shock value. Is the offended looks from old ladies and soccer moms really worth all the time you have to spend back-peddling from your image when you want to be taken seriously?

34

I come on here and use this imagry and freely espouse my philosophy because it is pleasing to me to do so.
In everyday life however I don’t wear my philosophy on my sleeve, and I tend to steer away from discussion of religion wholey, as it scarecly leads to anything productive. And of course, Satanism is not a religion of martyrs,and exposing yourself as a Satanist to a christian majority that are set in their hollywood preconventions of what a Satanist is is inevitably fruitless, as the monotonous harping about devil worship in this thread serves to illustrate.

And of course I haven’t made any claims that don’t already fall in the realm of reality. There is no room for faith in Satanism.

I’ll leave the faith based claims to the silly theists.

35

I think this matter needs to be further clarified. (Hopefully for the last time :wink: )

“Real” Satanists are people like Dr. Satanical. Your mainstream satanist does not believe “Satan” exists, let alone worship “him”. The only people who claim to be satanists that worship the devil are angry teenagers(hopefully), who are former christians but are too stupid to realize the the christian doctrine is a myth. So these people worship him to rebel. Silly fools.

36

I know that. The reason I know that is because anytime I’ve ever seen a Satanist in any public venue, including their own websites, they have to spend at least half their time explaining that they don’t worship the devil or believe he exists, because their terminology and symbolism was specifically designed to give that impression. That’s why I said the symbolism might be counter-productive, if in truth, Satanists really aren’t out to shock/impress people with their angsty dark ways.

37

My ‘ways’ and neither angsty nor dark.

I am just a great fan of knowledge and it’s advancement.

Which makes me a great adversary of faith.

38

[contented edited by ILP]

39

Thank you :slight_smile:

40

You make an excellent point here and I tend to agree with you. I do believe it is counter-productive to use the term Satanism, as it invokes the obvious appearance of “Devil Worshipping”. However, if someone is not open-minded enough to actually to check Satanism out before making a judgement, I really doubt Satanism is for them anyways. It requires you to be a free-thinker.