Bob,
As usual, your remarks are on the mark and much appreciated. I’d like to bring in here one of Torrey’s considerations as I think it pertains to spiritual considerations of this matter. And, thanks about J. Yes, it’s all I can do to help her–being there, caring and not becoming overwhelmed by the negativity the disease exhibits.
“A 2002 study comparing nonprofit and for-profit psychiatric inpatient units found that the nonprofit units were superior in almost all aspects of psychiatric care.”(Torrey). So,why don’t we opt for the best care available? Nonprofit units still require funding, which is available only through government subsidies or private charities. In both cases the fact that nonprofits give better care is a secondary consideration to questions about where the money is coming from and how it is being used.
Even in these tough economic times people in the US spend enough money on entertainment and junk food to support all nonprofits and to build and finance more of these. Charity is, of course, subject to personal priorites. The spiritual issue is how these two conflict or complement.
According to Torrey, MI sufferers contribute little or nothing to the societies that support them. IMHO, this lack of contribution is responsible for such questioning as to the validity of MI, questioning as to the efficacy and expense of long term therapies based on coping rather than cure and questioning as to the costs of necessary research. The questions are raised by those who believe they have “paid their own way.”
Continued–
In the 1980s I came to the conclusion that one dream duty was to empty mental garbage. What happens when the garbage can’t be removed? Dis-ease!
My friend J. is improving under med stabilization.
In my lifetime I’ve met three psychotics. Each exhibited their illness in different ways. One ran naked through the streets. Another publicly masturbated. J. doesn’t do these things. Her core personality seems dominant in that she is able to understand and abide by social standards of decency and propriety. The real J. beneath the protective masks is a sweet, conscientious, religious lady.
A study of extant primitives whose beliefs may seem psychotic to us may reveal why there seemed to be so few “insane” persons in these societies and why those who didn’t fit the mold were often seen as “spiritual” leaders. In our current societies, as you noted, Bob, no such reverence for the mystery that is the “manna” of the spirit exists. There is no allowance for what is considererd to be an anomaly or abhorration in the current societal demands for increased productivity and profit regardless of the human and humane expense.
Is Marx right in assuming that economics determine morality?
Economics play a big part of morality but I wouldn’t say determine. Is J a Catholic or a “harsh” believer in God via another religion who takes it gravely seriously?
Hello Ier,
I think that we have the common problem here of opposites showing up a real problem which is being suppressed. On the one hand we have Nonprofit-Organisations providing the best care but having little funding, and on the other side we have the attempt to drown the need out of our awareness by spending money on junk food and entertainment, leaving little for care and the question whether it is warranted anyway.
When a society collectively does this kind of thing, dreadful things happen, probably the worst of which was the Holocaust, although the 20th Century was altogether a time of dreadful things, as it was a time of religious breakdown. I don’t believe either, that the religious breakdown was the cause of dreadful things, but that they were both symptoms of the same problem. It is the outbreak of unprecedented and radical rationalism that brought the 20th century to these things, and the nationalistic pride which in fact hid a personal crisis which was probably best embodied by the Los Alamos director Robert Oppenheimer, who later became increasingly concerned about the potential danger to humanity arising from scientific discoveries and became a martyr to McCarthyism.
It is a time of strange contradictions and orwellian duplicity, signifying a society which has lost its bearings and is out on a raft at sea, deciding who is the first to be eaten. Those who feel the truth but dare not speak it are deemed insane …
I’m glad to hear that J. is improving.
Looking towards alternative medicine, there is room for hope that the soul may find recognition some day. I’ll write some more on that tomorrow.
In a sick society, yes.
Take Care
It’s hard to say what J. believes. She’s different people at different times. Sometime she is into fundy guilt and shame. Othertimes, she sees much more than those emotional blackmailings. In the USA it may be that combination of economics and taught self-centeredness affect morality. Thanks for your input here. I think your thread, which is, IMHO, an excellent view of schizophrenic reality, hinges on the question of personal integrity. Have you seen Russell Crow’s movie."A Beautiful Mind (2001). Torrey thinks its about the best portrayal of schizophrenic reality we have. it is not bogged down by blame the parents or blame the society issues.
Bob,
Looking forward to your next post. Oppenheimer has always been one of my personal heros. Silhoutte and you agree on the 20th century dominationation of rationalism as an overlooking of what constitutes a soul. Unfortunately in philosophy forums in general a mention of the soul has to be a reference to Platos ideas–rational assessments. Otherwise, most who post won’t attend.
Thanks, what do you mean by my thread “hinges on the question of personal integrity”? I have saw the movie, at first I thought it was fantastic and intriguing because of consistent visual hallucination and constant interaction with it, however I had doubts about this so called person he envisioned throughout his life, (that never aged, etc)as hallucinations I experienced aren’t like that. I looked into it and learned that Professor(?) Nash never really had visual hallucinations, only auditory. The movie seemed to make his schizophrenic experience to be more, “watcher friendly” in that they omitted the more embarrassing aspects of his illness, in which one time he showed up to a party wearing diapers and a baby outfit, (but this may be an unrelated sexual fetish, I’m not sure). Anyways the movie I would say, in turn, did not do a great job of depicting his condition or the condition of anyone else, because it really wasn’t accurate at all it seems. However it could possibly do some good for the situation as you said there isn’t much else better out there that portrays it as it is regardless. For the most part it gets the point across.
Looking towards alternative medicine, there is room for hope that the soul may find recognition some day. James Hillman, leading scholar in Jungian and post-Jungian thought, has said in an interview,
Reading Thomas Moore, I notice the influence of James Hillman and it is very potent stuff. Perhaps it is especially so for people like myself who have a leaning towards culture and soul in the aesthetic sense, which has, of course, coloured my discussion on Religion.
In Germany, Ruediger Dahlke (born July 24, 1951 in Berlin) is a physician and psychotherapist working in the field of esotericism, and in the psychotherapeutic field, who seems to have a very similar approach. In a book on digestive problems, of all subjects, he starts off by talking about the method of diagnosis common to medicine today as being inadequate in many cases. In summary, he says (my translation),
I hope this makes as much sense to you as it does to me.
Take Care
WW III,
Personal integrity is your God-given right to assert the value of your own identity in the teeth of all expectations and biases of others. Of course, we all have to compromise in order to belong; but, we do not have to relinquish our sense of self-esteem in the process. Personal integrity is your right to discover who you are before others tell you who you have to be. This is difficult for MI sufferers. Being dependent on the good will of others, they are victimized by their needs. Biases that devalue one who is actually a human being of given value are the ignorant prejudices and judgments of others and one’s acceptance of these claims as truth.
I’ve obtained a copy of “A Beautiful Mind” and will keep your critique in mind as I watch it. John Nash’s life is a good example of using the creativity that can come from alternate reality.
Bob,
Apologies for absence. Cranky computer and caring for J. are exacting time. I read your posts carefully and wish to research the writers you mention, especially Thomas Moore. These writers are on the right track, IMHO. I only wonder about how they can incorporate these humane ideas into current for-profit and logico-technical oriented therapies.
Have you seen the movie “A Beautiful Mind”?
Liz,
The human psyche is not just left-brain neocortexial, logical dependent. From that singular POV, MI sufferers get meds and biases. While the meds stabilize, the biases tell sufferers that they are somehow imperfect or inferior. No such judgments come from a psyche that operates as a whole.
This is my last attempt to salvage this thread.
On the Ron Howard/Russell Crowe film–This is an expurgated version of one person’s experience. It is not a depiction of any other experience. It is not WWIII’s experience. It is not J’s experience. As a film that does show how the hallucinations work,it is noteworthy. When J’s episodes are getting severe there are physical signs. Nothing tastes right to her. The top of her head becomes hot and itchy. She cannot stop drinking liquids. The characters in her hallucinations are not invented people such as those John Nash met.They are people she has heard about and people, living or dead, from her past.
I listened to an hour interview with Thomas Moore at careofthesoul.net., was very impressed by his ideas that our reality is based on much more than what science gives us as mechanistic/functional. My only problem there, as it is with most holistic approaches, is that some of his readers and hearers may see his concepts as promoting any sort of herbal or unrealistic therapies. He does revere science,but acknowledgesthat its findings are limited. He does realize that patients need to be treated as more than objects to be repaired.
I found the film to be both entertaining and informative, using the movie media to explain some aspects of Schizophrenia which are otherwise hard to imagine for people not affected, but as you say, the experiences differ amongst those suffering under the disorder. I find that this is our greatest problem with illnesses which we cannot see or imagine, and there is always an attitude in at least half of people which tends to question whether the illness is more than an asocial behaviour. In fact, even though I have training and am aware of potholes, I have fallen into a few myself by completely making a wrong judgement.
Thomas Moore is promoting care rather than cure, but he is also invoking the sources of imagination which have been available long before our “modern” methods came into being, and which have been neglected in favour of a purely rationalistic attitude. He has re-discovered the healing aspect of religion, art and poetry in whatever form they may come. I find that it is about being able to imagine something which you can only know by suffering it yourself, but by gaining access by means of art forms, we can “experience” in an abstract way.
This has long been my approach to biblical texts, seeing them as “vehicles” of abstract experience which the text tries to invoke in the reader or listener. It is obviously, by the examples he uses in his books, also true of Greek legends and mythology and most of the epic writings of the ancients. We seem to be regaining access to subjects by training the imagination to take on a kind of proxy empathy in place of the real experience, but thereby understanding better and thereby caring better for the person with that ailment.
If it were to catch on, it would revolutionise Psychiatry, Psychology and Religion in the west.
Take Care
Bob,
I totally agree with your post. I’ve bookmarked Moore’s home page in order to read and understand further. About the caring, he is so right!!! I’ve seen it work on J’s symptoms and have seen her correct herself after stating incoherent thoughts. Spiritualty is needed nowadays.It may be the only thing that stops us from competitions that produce haves and have nots and from wars over beliefs. I’ve just finished Wright’s “The Evolution of God” in which he claims that this is an evolution of human understanding. Literalists interpret sciptures according to their personal biases and excuse their lack of acknowledgement of our common humanity. Likewise, many scientists, doctors, etc. take their training and information literally and are unable to see that we are all inthe same boat, we are all searching for personal meaning and value and we are all dependent on the kindness of others.
About the “modern” dis-eases", cancer, heart attacks, severe mental disorders, I cannot help but wonder to what extent they are caused from forcing humans, by threatening survival and integrity, into algorithms based on productivity and profit at the expense of our natural, circadian rhythms.
If that’s true–and I believe it is–it’s a statement against “talk therapy.” I’d go so far as to say there are no practicing psychiatrists or psychologists who utilize “talk therapy” as a basis for ‘treatment’ who don’t approach it with bias. That bias usually revolves around the idea that the patient is ‘crazy’ but the doctor isn’t.
Please keep us–or, at least, me–informed of J.'s progress. Thanks.–Liz
Liz,
Thanks for returning. Talk therapy can work if it is caring, creative and imaginative. If it is doctor knows and patient doesn’t it becomes a stalemate of self-assertions. As Bob notes, caring is therapy. Exposing a sufferer to the beauty, wonder and awe of his/her own being can work to open the hermitically sealed thought processes that are symptomatic of both the disease and the arrogance of some therapists.
About J. I challenge her with humor, not with logic. She told me she had several combs but they all disappered but two. I told her we would have to turn off the lights and watch to see if they sneak under the door and escape. She laughed. She got it!
I never left, ma deer. I worry about you practicing psychiatry without a license, is all. Ah, well, whatever seems to work.
For some reason, I’m reminded of the comic strip, Red and Rover, (Please don’t ask me why, because I don’t know.) Today’s strip had Red sitting under a tree while Rover thought, “I wonder where fireflies go during the day,” Red answered, “To recharge their batteries.” Rover thought, “What kind of batteries?” Red’s answer was, “AAAAAAAAA,”
This is the sort of humor I appreciate.
If J. appreciates humor of any kind, that’s a step up as far as I can see. In the meantime, please don’t expect most ‘talk therapy’ to be “caring, creative and imaginative.” particularly not if its being paid for by medicare or medicaid.
Bob,
I’m currently reading “Beauty and the Soul” by Italian psychotherapist Piero Ferruci (2009). His subtitle is “The Extraordinary Power of Everday Beauty To Heal Your life”. In his introduction he includes a quote from James Hillman. If Moore, Hillman and Ferruci are indications of a present trend in pschotherapy, there is hope that the future of psychotherapy will be more humane.
My reticence to believe such a trend could survive our for-profit motive is somewhat revised by these hopes of better conditions on the ground, of better treatments to come. I believe it was Einstein who claimed that if only 13% of a population could believe in one thing that would change the course of history.
Here in the States the American Dream that anybody with enough grit, gumption and tenacity could have “the good life” is fast proving to be little more than an enticing fairy tale. In the 20th century here the dream was realized at the expense of depersonalization. Later in the century New Age ideas began to emerge in science and religion. These ideas are that the soul matters and that the human spirit cannot be long surpressed. Maybe, just maybe, we are evolving into better undrestanding of what it means to be fully human. Maybe this will include life-affirmation, personal integrity affirmation and caring treatment of the mentally ill.
Liz,
Yesterday, for the first time I met her, J. was able to tell me that she has been diagnosed as shizophrenic. That’s progress. No, I’m no armchair psychiatrist. I practice nothing. Instead, I use all tools I can find that will educate me about how to help this lady. Psychiatry is only one such tool. I try to help her restore her sense of personal integrity that is being denied by social bias and personal “Why me?”. Reread Bob’s posts. Either pschotherapy comes to grips with the soul or it continues to be nothing more than stopgap maintenance.
There is not doubt that there are higher things to be achieved, but I think that Moore is right about the importance of the soul in the nitty-gritty, and less is the high-fluted ideas of the spirit. Of course we need both, but we need the depth in our time when so many decisions are made on superficial grounds. The times when we learn to pray naturally are soul-times, otherwise it always has a feeling of being overdrawn or even artificial, as though we are clinging to convention or “standing on street corners”, like the Pharisees were accused of.
It is also still very much the need for prophylaxis, preventing the dis-ease at the beginning or at least preventing the complications. Much of what we live is affect and emotion, and less rational than we have believed. First of all our beliefs guide our perceptions, and only then does the ratio sort our imaginations and give us evidence for decisions. We know that Parkinson’s patients tend to hallucinate by being given dopamin, which can and often does enhance the perception of patterns to a degree, that things are seen which are objectively not there. This is also something which the natural production of dopamin can obviously do too, which presents the question whether people like John Nash suffer this chemical overproduction and see or hear those things which their beliefs suggest when their minds see certain patterns.
A second question arises: Is this the pathological side of very imaginative people? Could it be that hallucinations are just a disturbing imagination which finds no border to reality, and so the sufferers have no means to differentiate imagination from reality? We too often see such problems from the perspective of what we regard as “normal” without really being sure about the borders of normalcy. We don’t really want to be “normal” but rather individual and I think the question that nature puts is, what do we need to survive? Does a vivid imagination help me survive or does it just confuse me? How do I react to this confusion? Regression or progression? To what degree is either of those healthy? How much “depression” is healthy?
When is the personal integrity secure and when is it breached? When does it become apparent that we are living a dream from which we desperately need to wake up before it becomes a nightmare? What is being neglected in people on an everyday scale? The soul has been neglected, and it is probably necessary to lead generations back to their soul-food one person at a time by overcoming the modern idea of religion – which seems to be a big problem along the way.
Take Care