Enigma,
I wanted to say that, it’s you who wins. When life progresses normally, there would be no need to find more meaning in life because it would already be there. So, it’s only in adverse circumstances, perhaps prolonged too, that we need to find meaning in life. However, if finding meaning in life and meaning OF life will both arise from adverse circumstances only, I’m not quite sure right now. As to Vaclav Havel’s saying, ‘that we try to find more meaning when less is left’ if you look at this saying, then, well, I’d have to conclude that the meaning OF life could only be found in the most adverse circumstances, unless, we put more meaning to even a little bit that we can find in those really adverse circumstances. Whatever…
Does anybody feel that we have a dire right and not just a need to KNOW the meaning and purpose of life? I need to fight with the Gods above because they won’t explain. If I’m here in this life, I need to know why and how? And more than that, I have a right to know. Socrates said, “I know nothing.” The funniest thing about this whole philosophy thing and life is, the more you know, the less you feel you know. It’s the funniest thing I’ve ever seen in my whole entire life, almost as if some one out there DOES NOT WANT US TO KNOW ANYTHING 
Now, there can only be two scenarios:
One: I don’t want my loved one to know the truth because, “reality is harsh.”
Other one: I don’t want my enemies to know the truth because, I’m tricking them obviously.
But then in both instances, the truth is harsh, which neither my loved one nor my enemy would like to know. So does that mean that the reality behind the meaning and purpose of life is, “harsh.”
I’m NOT going to believe such crap!!!
The only thing I’m going to believe in is a 3rd scenario where truth is hidden from us to surprise us later. It has to be. The meaning and purpose of life CANNOT be harsh only, it has to be a surprise or a shock depending on the way we lived our life. It has to be. Whatever… I don’t want to think anymore, it’s useless 
Great topic everyone. Im too drunk to add anything of worth, it has some meaning at least. 
Jeez! Guys, then the meaning of life has to be that we just keep living our life responsibly, not in a good way or bad way, but responsibly. If someone wrongs us, then we give tit for tat otherwise we place the burden on God and so we pay for that, for not living responsibly.
And the fact that we don’t know for sure how we came in this universe and why we are in this universe, despite that, if we can live our life responsibly, without caring for the outcome, isn’t that going to be the real test? But why do we have to be tested? I need to know that.
There is no intial meaning to our lives, and on a larger scale, no meaning to why the universe came to be.mWhy do you suggest that the meaning of life is to live responsibly? Responsible is only what you think is responsible and what others think of it too, so that isn’t a real meaning seen as everybody’s idea of of ‘responsible’ will vary relataive to yours.
The only meaning i can forward is to survive, if you were not here, nothing would matter, if you were not alive, ‘meaning’ would be irrelevent, so to have a meaning, you must be alive in the first place, making ‘survival’ the key meaning.
Reproducing also is quite logical. I don’t understand why others are talking about a God? Doesn’t God sound selfish to u? He’ll only let u into ‘heavan’ if you follow his rules that he made up. Indeed that’s selfish, sounds very human even. So could u even say God exists?
Rami,
You do what you feel is the responsible thing to do and others will do what they feel is responsible in their eyes. No one is suggesting that you act in the way others want you to act.
It’s true that we need survival in the beginning because without it there would be no life, so survival must be there. But if survival was the meaning or purpose of life then there would be no suicide, but the fact there is suicide means that survival is not the ultimate meaning or purpose of life.
As for God, I’d say that God exists and the simple most reason for that is simply because we can feel it in our hearts. When all else fails, everyone turns to God and wants to believe that there is one. If God wasn’t there people would not believe so. I’d just look at things very simply, why complicate it? It feels there is a God so there must be a God. We just need to find some proof to substantiate this concept.
As for selfishness of God, I don’t think if God is God then He would be selfish but I feel that He must be just though, in which case I believe that He would not ever forgive and so we would have to live the same situation if we wronged someone, whether in this life or another and whether we like it or not. I dunno, that’s what I feel. Whoever said, “Forgiveness is divine” must have been a little crazy because he couldn’t have deliberated on the consequences that could arise if God started to forgive.
What u are talking about Beenajain is a ‘set’ meaning, your talking as though life was handed to us with a set of instructions, i’m talking from a perspective of somebody who has no higher faith in an all might entity.
You say that God is selfish but forgiving? Then what do u say about his so called ‘judgement day’. Do you not that that’s a little contradictory if he only wants to send the people who loved him to heavan and the rest who didn’t believe or commited some kind of crime (in his eyes) to hell. Why is not believeing in God seen as a sin? Surely if god is all knowing and knows what’s best for me then according to ‘God’, im a bad person?
I understand that you say you feel him in your heart but i just cant see that as being the case, the idea of somebody watching us from outside of space is crazy,
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there is no beyond the Universe, as far as we know, outside the universe there is no ‘distance’ so where is he?
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If ‘God’ just is but the Universe came to be at some finite point, then what was God doing for an infinite amount of time before he created the Universe?
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If one were to be outside of Space, how would he communicate with others on Earth? There is no physical way, so how does ‘God’ manage to send his books beaming down to earth? Without using a human vice, try a explain it, there just isn’t possible.
I’m sure you may have read the bible or qu’ran? It says Heavan is beyond imagination, but then goes ahead and uses human vices such as ‘The rivers flow with wine’.
Survival is a function. Purpose, i.e., meaning, resides at a level beyond function.
A worker ant survives. You could say that it’s purpose is to just survive. Oddly, worker ants seem overly fixated on keeping the queen fed. So, worker ants have a purpose beyond mere survival, they must help their queen survive as well. having a purpose beyond their own individual survival, it can be said that worker ants have a ‘higher purpose’, beyond their own individual survival.
One can say that God designed them thusly, or it is a result of evolution, or little green men from mars, none of that changes the fact that purpose and meaning can exist beyond mere survival.
If, being such meaning can exist for insects, it could also be so for human beings. This isn’t to say that it MUST be so, but there are creatures we can observe everyday that possess a purpose beyond survival.
Aristotle believed that human beings were rational animals and that as a result of our reasoning ability our purpose was to make rational choices.
If I understand Frankl correctly (its been a few years since I read man’s Search for meaning) Human Beings, who are more individualized than ants, can find meaning for their lives in their partictular individual rationalizations on life (specifically, their life). This can be done moment to moment in response to whatever it is life throws our way.
For example, you may decide that your purpose in life is to cheer on your favorite sports team. Or you may decide that your purpose is to simply survive. Recognize that these are all your choices, and in and of themselves, do not, in any way, limit the choices of others.
GateControlTheory very nice post. I concur! ← I’ve always wanted to say that
I never said that God is selfish or forgiving, do you have a serious problem reading stuff? I said that God would be just and so forgiveness would not be His domain because then the justice cannot be brought to the person who was wronged. In fact you are the person who suggested in your earlier post that God is selfish. I will NOT discuss anything with you anymore since you are completely irrational! 
What makes life meaningful is different for every individual. We all have to figure it our for ourselves. Its beautiful. What makes my life meaningful? Too often we don’t have to think about it very much. But get into a bad enough circumstance, then you had better find out quickly.
If somebody gave you a meaning of life that wasn’t personal to you, then it would be pointless. Like is somebody told you that the meaning of life was to eat potatoes you would look at him as if he was a complete idiot. (Or at least I would.) Its useless to talk about a general, impersonal meaning of life. We can only talk about our own self-discovered, personal meaning of life.
When I read Frankl I felt that part of what helped him survive was his sense of humor. He never explicitly discusses it, but he seemed to be able to laugh at his experience from the perspective of hindsight. Laughter helps us to live in this frequently absurd world
My apologies Beenajan, i was supposed to say ‘You say that god isn’t selfish’ so what is your input on day of judgement. Do you not that that’s a little contradictory if he only wants to send the people who loved him to heavan and the rest who didn’t believe or commited some kind of crime (in his eyes) to hell. Why is not believeing in God seen as a sin? Surely if god is all knowing and knows what’s best for me then according to ‘God’, im a bad person? This God seems to only do things for himself, he wants the power of being loved to make himself feel good that everybody obey’s him, that to me is selfish.
Why would u not discuss with me? I want your opinions and what you really think on this matter, thanks!
Rami,
Look, God is all knowing in the sense that He can help you but He won’t do the stuff for you unless absolutely needed and justified. So He gives you freedom to do what you like. If you live responsibly you go to Heaven otherwise Hell. I believe that there are two realms - the physical world and the mental (spiritual). Like water evaporates and then condenses, similarly, death is a phase that takes us from this physical world to the state of becoming a spirit and back. And because we have complete freedom (I suspect water has no power to act otherwise because it has no consciousness but we do) so we act the way we do, responsibly or otherwise. Ah! Ha! So we are free to act and not fated, but it’s only the act that is free, the life we get becomes fated. Resolved it!
And, God could not want, “the power of being loved to make himself feel good that everybody obey’s him, that to me is selfish,” because He is already powerful and Supreme. If I have a website and put a guest-book there so people will compliment or criticise my work, it is only because I look for comments to make me feel great and this is only because I’m not great. But if I was, then why would I need anybody’s comment or adoration, prayer or applause? I would not care at all.
Is god stupid then Beenajain? Your really not giving me the full arguement i would like, your avoiding many of the examples i have laid down.
Surely god would have realised by now that on the ‘day of judgement’ when he supposedly judges all, doesnt this god realise that he will only get a judgement and picture of one living in fear of hell? Let us assume we had no goverments, would we really be such a civilized race? And if you did take that goverment away, then we would see the natural behaviour of human beings. Now the reason i question ‘is god stupid’ is because i wonder why he ever told humans that he even exists? Wouldn’t he have had a better judgement of us if he didn’t make himself aware to us, that way, he would get a clear accurate judement of all, and not a judgement of one living in fear of hell.
Unless of course, he didn’t make himself aware to us, and unless of course he doesnt even exist but rather he were created by imperfect beings designed specifally to keep people in order and to give them hope and comfort them in times of despertaion. God is a powerful message, and i think that somewhere along the lines of creating him, we created our greatest dream, imagine if he were real, it’d be perfection!
I do not at any point mean to offend your religious beliefs.
Rami,
You misunderstand something very important here. God is not some entity or thing or being. God is THE JUSTICE SYSTEM ordained by life to be there so life can proceed fairly in the long run atleast, just like we have the Supreme Courts or the highest justice. Ok?
And I already wrote in another post that it is imperative that God not reveal Himself or how could one act freely and live a free life, it would be impossible. For example, I’d wonder if what I did just now was it wrong or right? Should I put my left foot first or my right? Oh! My God! A bug just got crushed underneath my foot now I’ll surely go to Hell or worse, I’ll be the same bug in my next life, etcetera. Do you know the amount of strain that would place upon all of us if we knew for sure that God existed, we could not live anymore. That’s why my dear, God chooses to be ambiguous, uncertain and avoids disclosing Himself. Just what I feel. And so the phrase, “God reveals Himself in God’s own time,” I don’t think it is true because I don’t think that God will ever reveal Himself completely.
As for our being tested on Judgement Day, if we live our life responsibly then there is nothing to fear, so the only person who would live in fear of the J day would be one who has been totally irresponsible in life and had no regards for tests.
As to my own question that I raised earlier in another topic, why do we have to be tested? It’s because we are all energy. Energy can change form but never dies although infinitesimal amounts can dissipate. And this change is there so energy can keep surviving through transformations and that’s why, “Change is the law of nature.” So, we keep coming to this physical world and back to the spiritual and so on the cycle goes and we are tested so life can proceed fairly for all concerned.
And don’t call God, “stupid.” He is NOT STUPID!
Anyways, the point I was trying to make was that God is the Highest Justice and not someone sitting in outer space, that’s why the following quote from life is true - “Life has a way of taking care of itself.” (Mind you don’t forget re-birth and fate here)
BeenaJain,
If there is a judge, even if he is hiding out in the bushes, where we can’t see him, so to speak, then we really aren’t free. Even if there is a long time before we get judged, the fact that we get judged make us not free. As long as that judge does have the authority to back up his judgment, and in the picture you paint, your guy does have that power. As long as there is a judge then life is just a competition or contest with the inevitable result of winners and losers. Then there are tons of people who are more than happy to tell you what the rules of this competition are. Since the judge is hidden, he never shows up to clarify things. So do you trust these people with their rules for the competition? And nowadays you gotta decide which people with which rules to follow.
And we are supposed to love this judge who gives us a false sense of freedom while he secretly judges all that we do?
Not my cup of tea.
Baby! You missed the whole jist of what I was saying. You can live your life freely but responsibly and despite that if conflict arises THEN you go to the Court or the Supreme court. So God or the Highest justice will not intervene in your life unless there is necessity, do you see? Therefore even though God judges, it is only for your betterment and only because that need arises, otherwise you’re completely free in a sense. Think of God as not a hindrance but a help in times of need. And although life I believe is a game but it does not have to be some competition unless you prefer to like the rat-race or so. And since we are all equal so some other has no right defining rules for you that you don’t like otherwise you can call the same tune too, don’t you think so? What I’m saying is that in our life we take people to courts for justice but in this collective universe, life takes us to court of the Highest Justice for justice if it deems necessary to keep BALANCE in the universe.
BeenaJain,
Ok. I read through your post a few times and I still don’t think that I understand it. I can understand how people can go to a court to decide a conflict, but how do you go to God? How does God intervene? How does God help in times of need?
There is too much unfairness in this world for me to think that there is a god of it who cares one bit about justice. There is no fairness in nature. Is it fair when the hungry lion catches the gazelle? It isn’t fair to the gazelle. Is it fair when the gazelle escapes from the hungry lion? It isn’t fair to the hungry lion.
People suffer needlessly everyday. Children die. Honest people get lied to. Kind people get treated mercilessly. People made up justice, but they can’t manage it. We try to make the world a just place, but life just isn’t fair. It is not unfair either. It is just life. Which is great.
There are always going to be people who make up rules that the rest of us have to follow. That is just the way it goes. You hope that they are going to be good rules that make sense, but just as often as not, they are silly rules or downright insane rules. But once again, that is life.
(Plus: Wouldn’t God be wise and understanding enough to not waste time judging people.)
If god knows ‘all’ then why does he need to waste his time judging? Shouldn’t he already know how he judged us, seen as he he does know ‘all’.
When a judge judges then he’s not judging himself or his life, he’s judging us or our life so it can proceed fairly for all concerned. Now, there’s some people who will avenge themselves but others who just don’t have the courage or the opportunity. Do you think that life could be so meaningless that the person who wronged in the way he wronged will not undergo punishment whether the victim punishes him or not? I don’t think so. I think life is fair in the long run and herein I include re-birth too. Therefore even though life is fated for it has to be, yet, one is still free to act as one likes or dislikes and pay for the consequences accordingly in the long run.