Male 'pervertedness' a natural rape instinct?

[Agape]

Wow, I was getting behind on the replies .

Hmm with regard to the instincts being ‘less appropriate’ than using rationality to ‘tame’ them I think that requires some qualifying.

I think I’d follow Nietzsche’s lead in saying (wo)man is just a mass of drives and instincts all in conflict with one another and to become a higher (wo!)man one must learn to harness and reign these in and bring them under one’s control. To put it more simply to develop the personality such that they gain some form of equilibrium without one instinct dominating the other- rationality vs. the instincts being the most simplistic interpretation.

So I don’t think rationality should hold precedence over the instincts but rather to have full mental health it is a case of allowing the ‘baser’ ‘animal’ instincts to be expressed in a way that is socially acceptable (and so too rationality but that is much easier to express and not be condemned by society as society is supportive of intellectual pursuits in general), or at least to not get caught by society for expressing them .

So mental health consists of allowing all the instincts to be expressed in some form or another (also known as self actualization, but as Maslow points out this is still an extremely rare phenomenon in human as he predicts as little as 3% maybe even one- I forget- of the population will ever achieve this- I’d put it closer to one percent from my experience)- albeit with the ‘baser’ ones such as aggression being sublimated through competitive games etc. Intelligence I think is being able to corral all these impulses into activities which will not f*ck you over in the long run, and ideally are even applauded and encouraged.

[gib]

@AnitaS

And as for the rape fantasy comment, total non sequitur. A “rape fantasy” is not at all comparable to an actual rape.

Wow, now that is interesting. You sibtlely admitted to fantasizing (or perhaps know of others who do). How do the two - fantasizing and experiencing the real thing - come to differ so dramatically? I can see that maybe, in some cases, a woman might put out mixed signals - saying ‘no’ and ‘yes’ at once - and this may be part of fulfilling the fantasy, but at other times saying ‘no’ and meaning it, and this may reconcile the difference between fantasy and reality. That is to say that the fantasy involves an intention to resist but at the same time for that intention to be overcome, but that in reality, that mix of intentions isn’t always present. Now what’s interesting about this is that sometimes - in reality! - a woman may have mixed intentions, which is just the fantasy come to life.

What do you say about this?

[gib]

@Churro the Viscous

@Mad Man P

@AnitaS

But there are those men and women for whom actual caring takes precedence over looks and resources.

The question is, is that way of prioritising part of their nature, or have they simply been deciplined/conditioned into letting some things take precedence over others?

Are they fighting their own instincts, in order to do so?

When I meet a girl I find thoughtful and intelligent (few and far in between), I’m usually at least a little bit more attracted to her than I was before I found out she was intellectually impressive.
I don’t force myself to feel that way at all.
The opposite is also true.
A pretty girl can get ugly real fast.

For me, good looks act as a ‘personality amplifier’ if you will. I was at an ADD conference the other day (I have the condition) and there was a beautiful girl there whom I fell in love with instantly upon her speaking - this despite the fact that I’m married to a wonderful woman, and with a kid and one more on the way, and having to remind myself of this. Now, you tell me: why did I not fall in love with any other woman there? - every other woman (except one I have to admit) wasn’t nearly so good looking, yet they all has ADD. This never happens to me with any ordinary woman, good looking or not - I usually assume they ‘suck’. But I’ve always had this sense of rapor (whether or not I impose it from my own mind - consciously or unconsciously) with women who are like me (read: with ADD) and are good looking, and I just assume their personality is like mine. It’s almost as though physical attraction is the ‘green light’ to look into their souls. Sure, physical attraction is all it takes to be sexually attracted to a woman (in the great majority of male cases), but it’s almost as if it also sanctions the additional attraction to personality should that personality happen to shine through and prove to be what I’m looking for.

Why is this?!?!?

PS - Please don’t tell my wife I posted this

[Agape]

^LOL.

Why is this?

You are a narcissist like everyone else

[AnitaS]

@gib

@AnitaS

And as for the rape fantasy comment, total non sequitur. A “rape fantasy” is not at all comparable to an actual rape.

Wow, now that is interesting. You sibtlely admitted to fantasizing (or perhaps know of others who do). How do the two - fantasizing and experiencing the real thing - come to differ so dramatically? I can see that maybe, in some cases, a woman might put out mixed signals - saying ‘no’ and ‘yes’ at once - and this may be part of fulfilling the fantasy, but at other times saying ‘no’ and meaning it, and this may reconcile the difference between fantasy and reality. That is to say that the fantasy involves an intention to resist but at the same time for that intention to be overcome, but that in reality, that mix of intentions isn’t always present. Now what’s interesting about this is that sometimes - in reality! - a woman may have mixed intentions, which is just the fantasy come to life.

What do you say about this?

Hi gib,
Well, I don’t think you have to indulge in it to understand how a rape fantasy would differ from the real thing. Besides, I’m not as forthcoming about my fantasy life as, say, Tab, so let’s talk hypothetically. And when you think about it, it is really fairly obvious.

Any fantasy scenario that I might construct is, at heart, consensual. I retain control, I choose my partner(s), location, and all other facets. And if I wanted to create a rape fantasy, my protagonist would look a lot more like Johnny Depp than some thug; he would use a level of force that I chose and the situation would play however I wanted it to.

Of course none of that is true of an actual rape. A victim has no control over the situation, the rapist is not someone he or she wants to be intimate with, and the rapist determines what level of violence will be used. Two completely different incidents.

That is to say that the fantasy involves an intention to resist but at the same time for that intention to be overcome, but that in reality, that mix of intentions isn’t always present.

I’d say in a real rape, that mix is rarely, if ever, present.

Now what’s interesting about this is that sometimes - in reality! - a woman may have mixed intentions, which is just the fantasy come to life.

I’m not exactly sure I understand your meaning here so I don’t know how to respond to this statement.

I do want to make it clear that just because there are women who have “rape fantasies,” that doesn’t mean they want it to happen in real life. It shouldn’t be used as a jumping off point to justify rape by saying “she wanted it.” I’m guessing virtually everyone fantasizes about something that, in reality, they would never want to actually happen.

I think the term “rape fantasy” really is a misnomer, at least from the victim perspective. From what I understand, some men have rape fantasies as well, and I’m guessing men might fantasize about playing either part? Although men are probably even less likely than women to talk about their rape fantasies.

So you tell me, if a man fantasizes about committing rape, deep down does he want it to be like a genuine rape, or does he really want the woman to eventually come to desire him and be a willing partner?

Assuming it’s the latter, you can see how a rape fantasy differs significantly from the real thing.

[Agape]

I think the term “rape fantasy” really is a misnomer,

I’d agree with that in the sense that I think many of the women who have ‘rape fantasies’ are probably misguided in what they really want.

They may just want someone to lead them, an authority in their lives and instead imagine something extreme due to naivete.

Like someone might say ‘I wish X would just die!’ In the heat of the moment they may be mad at the other person but it doesn’t necessarily mean they want them to die. Yes there is still a phenomena which they wish to be checked but not necessarily in the way they describe.

So in the rape cases maybe what they really want is just someone to be dominant with them in the bedroom rather than to actually be raped. I see this more as a metaphor saying ‘I want a man to take control’; speaking ‘poetically’ if you will, lol.

[gib]

@AnitaS

Any fantasy scenario that I might construct is, at heart, consensual. I retain control, I choose my partner(s), location, and all other facets. And if I wanted to create a rape fantasy, my protagonist would look a lot more like Johnny Depp than some thug; he would use a level of force that I chose and the situation would play however I wanted it to.

In order to be consensual, it wouldn’t be just you who makes these choices, but both. Is this involved in your fantasies? I mean, it’s easy to say that in one’s fantasies, one chooses what happens - it’s your fantasy after all - but what would be required to make that into a reality? Is it merely what happens in the fantasy, or the level of control you have over it - and if the latter, is it consensual control or does that matter?

@AnitaS

Of course none of that is true of an actual rape. A victim has no control over the situation, the rapist is not someone he or she wants to be intimate with, and the rapist determines what level of violence will be used. Two completely different incidents.

Yes, but isn’t there a practice of ‘forced’ sex that is consentual? I’ve heard of it. They use a ‘safety word’ or something like that - something that signals that the one partner really is uncomfortable. My question is - and this is the whole point of my posting this - if you have a ‘safety word’, or in any way know that the ‘force’ isn’t real, how much does this really fulfill a ‘rape’ fantasy?

@AnitaS

Now what’s interesting about this is that sometimes - in reality! - a woman may have mixed intentions, which is just the fantasy come to life.

I’m not exactly sure I understand your meaning here so I don’t know how to respond to this statement.

[/quote]
What I mean is that if a woman (or man) has a fantasy of resisting sexual advances only for the sake of inciting force against that resistence - if that’s what turns your on - then it implies that there might be some scenario in reality that matches that fantasy - some set of circumstances that would turn you on just as much as your fantasy does - but at the same time, that situation may differ by only a hair’s breadth from an actual rape situation (where ‘no’ really means NO!). In the latter case, there is no ‘mix’ of intentions - when the woman says ‘no’ she means it - whereas in the former case, where a fantasy is being fulfilled, she says ‘no’ only to set things up such that they guy can assert his sexual drives right through that ‘no’ - and this, for the woman in question, turns her on and fulfills the fantasy.

My question is - what would the latter scenario involve - would both partners have to be conscious of the actual intentions/purposes? Would such a mutual consicousness ruin the fantasy (because being forceful on the man’s part would have to be genuine)? Or could such a scenario only be fulfilling in fantasy because, as you pointed out, that’s the only atmosphere where you’re really in control of everything that happens?

@AnitaS

I do want to make it clear that just because there are women who have “rape fantasies,” that doesn’t mean they want it to happen in real life. It shouldn’t be used as a jumping off point to justify rape by saying “she wanted it.” I’m guessing virtually everyone fantasizes about something that, in reality, they would never want to actually happen.

Absolutely! And I want to second that. While we may get away with having these detached intellectual convos about rape situations, that’s where it should stay. I don’t care how much a girl may be sending mixed signals about her desire to be - eh hem - ‘taken’ - the slightest possibility that I may misinterpret her signals is enough for me to say “it’s not worth it”. I’d rather a girl find me sexually unfulfilling than traumatized by an act of rape on my part.

@AnitaS

So you tell me, if a man fantasizes about committing rape, deep down does he want it to be like a genuine rape, or does he really want the woman to eventually come to desire him and be a willing partner?

I would imagine the latter, but I wouldn’t know. My fantasies carry the theme of becoming intimate to the point of divulging secret forbidden lusts that might, in other circumstances, be embarassing, and then endulging in them because she and I are the only ones who know about it and feel the same way.

@AnitaS

Assuming it’s the latter, you can see how a rape fantasy differs significantly from the real thing.

Well, that’s only if the real thing doesn’t turn out as one’s fantasies usually play out. What if the woman actually does end up liking it despite her initial intentions/desires? I would call that a fantasy come true.

[AnitaS]

I’ll try not to be too long-winded here, as I think this is starting to veer off-topic a bit, but I think we’re talking about three fairly distinct entities – fantasy, consensual rough sex, and genuine rape. As complex as human sexual behaviour is, those three things are on a continuum and can overlap. If you make a fantasy into reality, it’s more of a role-playing experience, which as I see it is similar to the forced/rough sex scenario. Both are consensual, which is the crux of the issue, the defining difference between a “rape fantasy” and the real thing.

As to your central question, I think if you engage in a forced sexual encounter which you both agree upon in advance, then it probably could fulfill a “rape fantasy,” for either partner. At least in my mind, that would be MUCH closer to a rape fantasy than an actual rape would, again because it boils down to control/implicit consent. Having that safe word is a critical factor, as both partners are entering somewhat dangerous territory, and missed or mixed signals could be disastrous for both. I think there’d have to be a great deal of trust involved, from both sides, as she’s putting her safety in his hands and trusting that he won’t exceed her boundaries, and he’s equally putting his trust in her that she won’t come back at some later time with some devasting accusations. Again, this is why those things, to me at least, are radically different from an actual rape.

Bringing it back on topic for a minute, rather than there being a “natural rape instinct,” I think it would probably be very difficult for a typical man to engage in this type of behaviour, even in a consensual role-playing situation. Men are taught their entire lives NOT to treat a woman in that way, and it seems like it would be difficult to set that ingrained behaviour aside, especially with someone you care about. Or maybe it would be freeing for some…? Who knows.

@gib

@AnitaS

So you tell me, if a man fantasizes about committing rape, deep down does he want it to be like a genuine rape, or does he really want the woman to eventually come to desire him and be a willing partner?

I would imagine the latter, but I wouldn’t know. My fantasies carry the theme of becoming intimate to the point of divulging secret forbidden lusts that might, in other circumstances, be embarassing, and then endulging in them because she and I are the only ones who know about it and feel the same way.

Sharing fantasies are a great way for a couple to grow closer, I think. They needn’t be some deep, dark secret to be ashamed of, they are fantasies, for God’s sake, a way to safely explore things you don’t normally do. This is not to say there aren’t some bizarre fantasies out there that I wouldn’t want any part of, but as long as they are ultimately consensual, it’s hard for me to see the harm in what others choose to do. Live and let live.

@gib

@AnitaS

Assuming it’s the latter, you can see how a rape fantasy differs significantly from the real thing.

Well, that’s only if the real thing doesn’t turn out as one’s fantasies usually play out. What if the woman actually does end up liking it despite her initial intentions/desires? I would call that a fantasy come true

Maybe, but then I wouldn’t define that as rape, either. I’m guessing it is extremely rare that “the real thing” ever turns into something the victim enjoys.

[gib]

@AnitaS

Bringing it back on topic for a minute, rather than there being a “natural rape instinct,” I think it would probably be very difficult for a typical man to engage in this type of behaviour, even in a consensual role-playing situation. Men are taught their entire lives NOT to treat a woman in that way, and it seems like it would be difficult to set that ingrained behaviour aside, especially with someone you care about. Or maybe it would be freeing for some…? Who knows.

I agree, and I’ll raise you another point: I’m not sure it would even require raising men to be respectful of a woman’s sexual rights and privacies. I think most men don’t want their sexual experiences with women to be hurtful or traumatizing any more than one human being wants to hurt another human being. I think that’s quite natural. I would think the most desirable sexual experience for men is one in which both partners are consenting and deriving pleasure from it.

But of course, odd balls exist.

So if there is anything like a “rape instinct” in men, it would have to be something that only comes alive in very rare and particular circumstances, and for the most part will never come alive within the lifespan of most men. I haven’t read through this entire thread so I haven’t read the thoughts that others here have been posting, but if anyone’s posted anything to the effect that there’s more to a “rape instinct” than this, I’d call that ‘interesting’ to say the least.

@AnitaS

Maybe, but then I wouldn’t define that as rape, either. I’m guessing it is extremely rare that “the real thing” ever turns into something the victim enjoys.

Oh, well in that case, rape is traumatizing almost by definition. If it requires that there be no consent and no pleasure, I’m hard pressed to imagine even having a fantasy of rape.

[Oran]

Sorry for my interjection, but I think what’s being spoken about here is a submission fantasy.

[size=50]btw, interesting discussion[/size]

[tentative]

@Oran

Sorry for my interjection, but I think what’s being spoken about here is a submission fantasy.

[size=50]btw, interesting discussion[/size]

Oran, is it about submission fantasy or a being pursued fantasy? The idea that a female has a fantasy about being treated as an object just doesn’t click with me. I suppose there are women like that, but I can’t help but believe they are extremely rare. At the same time, the being pursued scenario is something that I can see most women enjoying in a fantasy - right up to the point of being caught and abused. In fact, as I think about it, a man raping a woman is a form of retribution. The male pursues, is rejected, and decides that if the female won’t give, he’ll take. The act is revenge against ALL women, not just the victim. Rape is a punishment by the male for being rejected. Damn! I’m in over my head here. I just don’t think in these terms…

[AnitaS]

@gib

Oh, well in that case, rape is traumatizing almost by definition. If it requires that there be no consent and no pleasure, I’m hard pressed to imagine even having a fantasy of rape.

@Oran

Sorry for my interjection, but I think what’s being spoken about here is a submission fantasy.

@JT

I’m in over my head here. I just don’t think in these terms…

I think the terminology is what causes so much confusion. In what I’ve read, and with talking with other women, I’ve never heard of a woman having a fantasy of actually being raped - I don’t know how you could even call it rape if it was something she wanted? By definition the words “rape” and “fantasy” are mutually exclusive, at least from a “victim” standpoint. I also don’t think it stems from a desire to be treated as an object.

To be honest, I really don’t know what the psychological underpinnings are, but I do think using the phrase “rape fantasy” is very, very misleading.

[tentative]

anita,

What about the being pursued fantasy angle? I know it’s fuzzy, but it seems close to something that makes sense. Is there a human (normal) alive that doesn’t enjoy the idea of being pursued by the opposite sex? Pursuit is confirmation of desirability, and “wouldn’t it be great” fantasies seem almost a logical proposition.

[AnitaS]

Sounds plausible to me, JT.

I think it also frees the woman somewhat from responsibility. There is such a negative stereotype out there that says women aren’t supposed to want sex as much as men do, it’s not “seemly.” Except that the normal woman does want sex. This sort of fantasy allows her to have it without being branded as wanton. [size=75][Ah! That’s a word I’ve read in a dozen cheap romance novels, but never have had a chance to use - yay! LOL][/size]

[tentative]

@AnitaS

Sounds plausible to me, JT.

I think it also frees the woman somewhat from responsibility. There is such a negative stereotype out there that says women aren’t supposed to want sex as much as men do, it’s not “seemly.” Except that the normal woman does want sex. This sort of fantasy allows her to have it without being branded as wanton. [size=75][Ah! That’s a word I’ve read in a dozen cheap romance novels, but never have had a chance to use - yay! LOL][/size]

Hmmm, we’re getting off topic, but I’m not sure that isn’t precisely on topic…

Wanton… does that go with heaving breasts and throbbing whatevers? Careful. You could attract a dozen propositions sharing that much information. Don’t go Harlequin on us.

[AnitaS]

Hey! I just wanted to use the word, I didn’t say it described me! You know me better than that, I am prim and proper at all times.

Sheesh, where do some people get their ideas??

[tentative]

@AnitaS

Hey! I just wanted to use the word, I didn’t say it described me! You know me better than that, I am prim and proper at all times.

Sheesh, where do some people get their ideas??

oh! I thought you were talking about your fantasies… De plane, boss! De plane!

[kuze420]

I’ma be that guy. “It’s sin.” A guy knows what a guy wants he oggles what he wants to oggle. Not some fat chick. There probably tons more but rape is justan extreme. We fuck so what, doesnt mean we’ll harm someone for fun… that depends pn the individuals morals not their “rape instinct” come on that doesnt sound right. only thing i see supporting that is dolphins.

[AnitaS]

@tentative

oh! I thought you were talking about your fantasies… De plane, boss! De plane!

No no no, you missed the word “hypothetical” up above there. I’m much too shy and reserved to share my own personal fantasies on a public forum, JT, you know that! As for Fantasy Island, if I remember anything about that show, it’s that getting your wishes fulfilled isn’t as much fun as it sounds.

Kuze420, there just is no response that would do justice to that thoughtful and insightful post.

[Oran]

[/quote]
tent said, Oran, is it about submission fantasy or a being pursued fantasy? The idea that a female has a fantasy about being treated as an object just doesn’t click with me. I suppose there are women like that, but I can’t help but believe they are extremely rare. At the same time, the being pursued scenario is something that I can see most women enjoying in a fantasy - right up to the point of being caught and abused. In fact, as I think about it, a man raping a woman is a form of retribution. The male pursues, is rejected, and decides that if the female won’t give, he’ll take. The act is revenge against ALL women, not just the victim. Rape is a punishment by the male for being rejected. Damn! I’m in over my head here. I just don’t think in these terms…
[/quote]
A few things first, in address to the discussion at large.

We are in no place to conclusively decide what fantasies are and are not plausible.
There are many reasons why a person might rape another.
It is not nessecary that a victim know the reason of the rapist in the context of a fantasy of a desire to be raped, should such a fantasy be plausible indeed.
I would say something of Anita’s position that there being women who have a fantasy of being raped in a situation with absolutely no control are rare, but would hesitate to say it is impossible, and would go as far as to say it is likely there are very few. Do not underestimate human sexual variety.

@AnitaS

Sounds plausible to me, JT.

I think it also frees the woman somewhat from responsibility. There is such a negative stereotype out there that says women aren’t supposed to want sex as much as men do, it’s not “seemly.” Except that the normal woman does want sex. This sort of fantasy allows her to have it without being branded as wanton. [size=75][Ah! That’s a word I’ve read in a dozen cheap romance novels, but never have had a chance to use - yay! LOL][/size]

That is a very probable analysis that I would prescribe to.