Lucid Dream Ethics

Philosophy Forums The Sandbox
21

???

Lets recap:

Me:
How would you act unethically in a lucid dream?

There’s nothing unethical at all about beating to death someone that you know is just a figment of your imagination, surely?

You: You could be training your mind to be violent.

Me: But not all violence is bad, ergo training your mind to be violent is not a bad thing.

You: “You said “not all use of violence is bad”. I’m saying ok, but that’s not what this thread is about.”

I am still trying to find an answer to my original question: how can we act unethically in a lucid dream? It is my opinion that no thing that we do in a lucid dream is either good or bad. Seeing as your only response so far has been to point out that some things might be bad because they are training your mind to be violent, it is up to you to justify the point that training your mind to be violent is indeed a bad thing (rather than an ethically neutral thing). You haven’t done this yet.

My point about not all violence being bad was justification for my belief that training the mind to be violent is not a bad thing. It is not a sidetrack to the thread at all, it is highly pertinent and a point you need to address.

22

A question of agency also. Who exactly is it who’s doing the dream beating…? Lucid dreaming is still dreaming - I drempt I had a fight with my postman a couple of days ago, I won thankfully, but I didn’t put head to pillow with the intention of “Hoo-boy now I am gonna fuck up that dream postman bastard real good.”

Quite hard to put your subconciousness on trial, and how would you punish it anyway…? Porn-diet…?

23

anon, I don’t understand what you mean by “important” in your OP. In what way?

Also, while we know a lot about the physicality of dream states, we still don’t understand the nature and purpose of dreaming. Some suggest it’s a way of working out things unresolved while awake. I was once told that the cast of a dream is immaterial, but instead to pay attention to one’s (as the Dreamer, Director, Master of the Dream Universe, etc.) reactions and emotions experienced in the dream. Which was a relief to me, since I’d dreamt I had sex with my brother and was awash in the ‘Yuck!!!’ factor only after I woke up. Which is another thing, any meaning taken from a dream isn’t even possible until you’ve awakened and are remembering and processing it. And my own experience is sometimes I can interpret it in a way that feels correct, others I haven’t a clue, but can take some guesses that I think are pretty good. But that’s sort of like going to a skilled fortune teller who can take anything you say and make it seem relevent.

24

I really think it is worthwhile to read and study dream experts and interpreters, including those who move into the spiritual realm. Dreams can work on many levels, as though they have layers or facets that can all be explored positively. Thus, you can look at a dream from the Freudian angle, or from the Jungian perspective; you can look at it as an avenue into the mind of another person, dead or alive; and it can show you something to be gleaned from past life or other life experience. There might also be facets that I haven’t covered here. All of them are valid, interesting, and useful ways of learning something about one’s life.

Some experts have told me that often a dream appears in order to get my attention about something that needs looking at or changing in my waking life, especially if something appears twice in a dream or if a dream is recurring. That has helped to some extent but not much because I keep having recurring dreams about houses or rooms with lots of people in the dream. Obviously I’m missing what the dreams are trying to wake me up to, but since life is good, I’m not too worried about it. Maybe I’ll figure it all out some day.

25

I generally feel most dream interpretation should be about how you feel during the dream and how you react to stuff, rather than what objects are in it (emotions are normally about the only vivid things in dreams anyway). If the people are all old friends and they make you feel good then maybe its time to look up some old friends. If the people are making you feel anxious, then maybe you have some anxiety issues or some problems you need to clear up with some people.

Dreams are kinda like the subconscience’s garbage can - they throw stuff out at you thats been whirring round there for some reason. Evidently, you can learn a lot from sifting through soemone’s garbage, but I’m not sure you need a garbage sifting expert as much as you need a pinch of common sense.

26

Assuming you know you’re dreaming and base your choices on that, you could see it as a victimless way of exploring your values.

On the other hand, pragmatically I would say that it’s probably wise always to act ethically. What if you were mistaken about it being a dream? I’ve been drunk and looked back on memories without certainty of whether I dreamt it or not, until friends told me that no, actually that really happened. If you try to practise automatic ethical behaviour such that you work it into your self-image then you’re better-protected at vulnerable times. It’s maybe close to the Buddhist view of mindful practice.

27

I wrote this before Brevel’s last reply btw, but I had internet problems and couldn’t post…

Everyone,

I think maybe I’ve been a little bit unclear. I’m not sure. When I used the word “ethics” I meant it in a very broad way - I’m not saying that there is any sort of clear right and wrong for instance, especially when dreaming! Yet ethical considerations derive from the general way we approach the world around us. A teenager especially, for instance, may see ethical considerations as something like a straightjacket applied to his true self. Deep down inside, this person may really want to kill whoever he feels like killing at the moment. What stops him or her may be the punishment which would surely follow, or it may be some sort of internalized punishment, like a strong subsequent feeling of guilt. There may be any variety of reasons. My point is that in such a case there is a strong schism present between one’s internal fantasies and one’s external actions. I question whether this is healthy or not.

Brevel, whether you feel that violence is always wrong or only sometimes wrong really is beside my point. I’m sorry my point isn’t clear. What I’m interested in isn’t your exact version of what is or is not appropriate conduct, what I’m interested in is whether whatever you feel is appropriate conduct in real life would also carry over into a lucid dream.

Everyone, a lucid dream is not merely your subconscious doing its thing. There is a conscious aspect to it. You are awake in your dream. You can make choices and direct, at least to some extent, your actions in your dream - just as you can make choices and direct, at least to some extent, your actions in waking life. So the only difference seems to be the importance we place on the real existence of our fellow beings. Most of us believe that dream beings aren’t real and therefore don’t suffer, while the real beings around us are real because they suffer. This distinction seems obvious when distinguishing between real people and dream people, but historically we have made and continue to make this distinction with respect to, say, humans versus animals, or even some humans versus some other kinds of humans. I wonder if the way we act really must depend on knowing the answers to these kinds of questions. Is it important to distinguish between animals (they suffer) and plants (they don’t)? Are we sure? Is it important to distinguish between organic beings and machines? Real versus genetically engineered beings? Or is it more important to cultivate a more unified attitude towards all phenomena, animate or inanimate? From that perspective, for instance, it matters how I treat my car engine, just as it matters how I treat my wife.

These are open questions by the way, and what hasn’t really come up yet is that integrating interior worlds with exterior worlds works both ways, in my opinion. Seeing waking life as “dreamlike” in some sense may open us up and allow for newer and possibly better ways of relating to others. There is a lightness to living that is possible, and I believe that can be beneficial, at least for some of us. Why shouldn’t some of the freedom we may experience during dreams also be experienced during waking life? Are we so bogged down by our moral attitudes, for instance, that we can’t be at least a little bit playful ?

28

I agree.

29

I agree, I like the way you framed this.

30

That’s an interesting take, Brevel. I do understand that dreams can be useful for bringing up emotions that have been downplayed or ignored during waking life. That is not an issue in my case. I am well aware of the importance of feeling and expressing emotions as they arise. I have a very good life, and I am a happy soul right now. My dreams therefore do not try to compensate for suppressed emotions. They are built around scenes, sort of like a surreal theatrical drama, and most of the time this occurs in very strange and interesting houses, buildings, or rooms. What I think is happening is that my brain is finding a way to incorporate and deal with a wider consciousness by, literally, making room for it.

Every day I do a LOT of brain work and learning. This all has to be incorporated into my conscious life and mind, but it also has to find its place in the other brain, sometimes thought of as the unconscious or subconscious mind. What better way to do that than by creating a series of long, large very interesting rooms, or building a new and different kind of house or building.

31

Similarly, I have noticed that when I read complex stories with a lot going on in them, my dreams tend to take on long, complex plot lines (many of them are of the type that could only have been pre-planned somehow, rather than just being a random series of events that connect) which I occassionally experience from multiple different characters. But when I’m not reading much (or I’m reading something non-narrative) my dreams seem far less sophisticated plot wise.

I wasn’t suggesting the emotions in dreams were suppressed ones. I feel its more just that there are certain emotions which we experience without really noticing, little things that cycle around and that your conscious mind doesn’t always register fully. Real life often moves faster than our emotions can keep up with - we feel something, but suddenly the feeling gets taken over by another task. You see something on the street that touches you, for example, (a happy couple with a new baby, a kid on his new bike) but almost instantly your mind is re-taken over by the fact that you are driving and need to focus on the road. You’ve felt something, but your brain hasn’t had time to process the emotion properly and your conscious mind has moved on. Or, your saw an old friends name on facebook in the corner of your eye and somewhere registered a tiny bit of remorse for not talking to them in ages, but in fact the glance was so fleeting that it went right by your consciouss brain in milliseconds. In fact, you may have barely registered the feeling at all. I think a lot of this kind of stuff probably comes back up in dreams somehow.

32

Of course it does. In real life, its perfectly ethically neutral to beat up an imaginary person. It’s therefore also perfectly ethically neatral to do it in a lucid dream. The same ethical rules (or lack thereof) apply to both - there are no ethical or moral laws about what you should or shouldn’t think about. Whether you are dreaming or fully conscious is irrelevent to this.

But I’m still waiting for an answer to my initial question: what is there that you could possibbly do in a lucid dream that is either ethical or unethical? And why is it ethical/unethical?

Because right now I am sticking with my initial skepticism: your question is pointless because there’s nothing you can do in a dream that would be good or bad in a morrally relevent sense. And so far, you have failed to give any satisfactory example of an unethical act in a lucid dream (along with a justification of why it is unethical).

Addendum: Your clarificatory post wasn’t really necessary: its been perfectly clear what you have been saying all along. I do understand your question and your points - I am just challaneging thier premise.

33

I’ve given an answer to your questions more than once. It’s no big deal if my answer doesn’t satisfy you - I just wish you would realize that I have answered you.

I’ve danced around the word “ethics” a bit - I’m using the word, but admitting it might be a bit loaded. Some people may have a very clear idea in their minds as to what exactly “ethics” is or entails. I know from experience for example that some people very rigidly distinguish between “ethics” and “morals”. If I haven’t said it yet, I’ll say it now - I just try to use whatever language works for the person I’m having a conversation with. Since people seem to get hung up over words, I’ve tried to say a little more to clarify my attitude. I’m not sure you are, but if you happen to be stuck on this word “ethics” (i.e. you’ve asked me, “But I’m still waiting for an answer to my initial question: what is there that you could possibbly do in a lucid dream that is either ethical or unethical? And why is it ethical/unethical?”) and if you want to continue to have a conversation about this, it might be helpful if you at this point clarified for me exactly what you mean by “ethics”. What does the word mean, and what does “ethical behavior” entail? If part of your definition of “ethics” is that it only applies to real people who suffer consequences, then clearly the “other” people in a dream would not suffer any consequences. Though since these “others” likely represent aspects of myself, I myself may suffer the consequences of my own “unethical” actions.

I’ve pointed out that my questions are of a psychological nature. Of course there are differences between interior and exterior life, and between real and imaginary people. But for some people there is a very strong schism between these things, and I’m exploring some of the philosophical reasons why such a schism could result - i.e. we may overemphasize certain kinds of ontological considerations.

34

In case it helps, I wrote a little bit on pages 10 & 11 of on the same themes. Also, Faust’s OP there gives a nice introduction to a view of morality that I strongly sympathize with.

I particularly liked Chester’s comment on page 10, “Well, right action can’t happen without right thought, but right thought can gear us up for right action even if the opportunity doesn’t arise to express it. It’s about our intention should a particular circumstance arise.”

35

I just had the idea that dreams basically occur outside the realm of morals and ethics. Everything in a dream is symbolic and if something occurs which causes you to pay attention to it and think about it, then your dream is telling you that there is something in your waking life that needs looking at and possibly changing.

So even if you commit murder in a dream, or participate in incestual sex, even that is symbolic. There is some great insight into incest and what that means symbolically in myth and dreams, and it’s not what you might think it is. I recommend doing research here.

36

anon: you haven’t given an example of an action you think would be unethical in a lucid dream. If I am wrong - please at least find the several seconds it takes to copy and paste it for me so I can address it.

I’m not too concerened about speicific definitions. Any action that is ‘good’ ‘right’ would be ethical, anything that is ‘bad’ or ‘wrong’ would be unethical.

I have’t proposed any such restrictions, nor would I. I am really leaving it up to you. If you think ethics is about intentions - fine. I don’t think you’ll find an example of wrongful intention in a lucid dream anymore than you can think of an example of a wrongful action.

Anyway - I honestly have lookked but I honestly can’t find it. So could you copy and paste the part of the thread where you gave an answer to my question?

37

Then you don’t understand that in a lucid dream you are conscious - you have conscious intentions.

I’ve said over and over that, to me, intentionally training the mind to be more violent, through indulging in violence, is an example of immoral action. That this may not be “unethical” to you is beside my point, as I’ve also stated.

38

I understand this perfectly. Its not exactly rocket science.

But here’s the point - I’ve asked you for an example of something that is unethical in a lucid dream, to counter my skepticism which consists of the claim that nothing in a lucid dream is either ethical or unethical.

As I have demonstrated, training the mind to be more violent is not unethical. Ergo, you have not countered the initial skepticism.

My argument is not ‘beside the point’. It is a valid and defeating counter argument. I can understand why you want to ignore it, but argumentively speaking I don’t think thats a very good option.

39

Perhaps anon is not so concerned with unethical as unwise?

Ethics is about one’s treatment of others, in general. Your self-conditioning, well, only affects yourself. It may not be unethical to indulge in private violent rape fantasies, for example, but it may be unwise to make a heavy habit of it.

40

I generally think of dreams as being outside the bounds of ethics and morals. I am inclined to include Lucid Dreams in this assessment, unless people can consciously control the dreams. Can they?