And non-Muslims also kill Muslim civilians.
This thread wasnt meant to be about killing, but about cultivating and building.
Yes, that is a somewhat novel and bizarre idea considering what Islam has been doing. But I base my optimism on a tremendously long term view, and some examples, rare, of Islam producing powerful art.
Art is literally the only thing that can redeem organized religion. And it needs redemption; bowing on a mat to give away your will is already a suicide attack. Its dreadful in the extreme. But Im trying, Ringo…
That knowledge requires the person to see architecture through their own eyes rather than through a photo (a travelled person).
Note I stated very clearly in my post earlier;
“Btw, I am not blaming Muslims per-se.”
I don’t bash Muslims and I do not blame Muslims directly for the atrocities committed by SOME Muslims. I do not even blame those evil prone Muslims who committed the evils and violence because they were unfortunately born with an active evil tendencies.
The critical root cause and blame are the evil laden elements in the Quran and within the ethos of Islam that catalyze and trigger the evil prone Muslims to perform their duty as good Muslims but those acts out in reality turned out to be evil and violent.
What I am criticizing is Islam in part, not wholly, i.e. the part that is malignant that trigger the evil prone Muslims to commit evils and violence around the world.
Why do you say the figures quoted are one-sided and meaningless?
Where are your arguments to justify your point.
Have you researched into those figures at all?
You stated in the OP
Re: Islam = Discipline & Beauty
It is rational for me to counter your point on its relation to ‘beauty’ and I am highlighting there are malignant elements in Islam that do not promote nor appreciate the ‘beauty’ you’re highlighting.
I have to highlight this point because your OP is not fully truthful in one way.
Note the cultural genocides committed by the Muslims of ISIS and other terror group.
My argument is the members of ISIS and terror group are more truer Muslims than the so-called moderate Muslims.
The difference is while the members of ISIS are good Muslims they are bad humans and while the moderates are not so good Muslims they are good human being where their basic human values to override the evil elements of Islam.
Thus I don’t think I am out of point in this case as in any discussion it is necessary to bring in other perspectives to the topic.
What I have done is to highlight various perspective to the topic but I am not going to keep drumming on the evils committed by SOME evil prone Muslims in this thread. [other than some side points with one-liner which is off topic].
In any case, if Muslims every produced anything of higher aesthetic values, it is not because of Islam per se, rather such higher good qualities of creativeness are oozing from their progressive human_ness that escape from the straight-jacketed constrictions of Islam itself.
What I was trying to do is offer Islam a way forward, by exulting its most significant virtue.
To take this path, this way forward, it would have to humbly focus on this most significant virtue, and at the same time try to rid itself of its vices.
With a similar mindset I responded to the murder by an Islamic man of filmmaker Theo Van Gogh in 2004, addressing the Dutch Islamic community with values that I figured back then would be compatible with Islam and also help it forward, in its struggle to assimilate to European culture.
This was the first result of that struggle.
vimeo.com/184585134
It wasn’t a success all-round. I did manage to infuse some of islam with some more Greek like thinking, but only marginally.
In the end, all that Islam has produced, in its short heyday from 800AD to 1000AD or so in terms of culture was a continuation of what the Arab and Persian worlds received from Alexander. It had literally nothing to do with the religion, all this mathematics and astronomy and chemistry, but only with Aristotelean and general Hellene wisdom that it received from the GREAT RAM but had to mask in terms of the religion.
“The ink of the sage is more valuable than the blood of the martyr” – Mohammed
conclude for yourself.