Are atoms incapable of wanting?
Define what want is at the molecular level.
The ability to be independent?
“Not wanting”, at least in this context, doesn’t mean “wanting other than”. It means not having the ability to want or not want. Nations come out of atoms by accident. Same for whole realities.
Why are you making a connection between atoms and nations?
Nations are not reality.
Nations most likely are just accident, but I’m compelled to ask because of the knowledge of discrepancy; reality is violence and anger and the political left and right - if reality isn’t intention, surely life owes it to itself to stop causing anger and violence through things which were never intended in the first place.
Then it must be fair to not allow something which isn’t reality to be the cause of violence and prejudice.
Shellytrokan, “reality” and “the experience of reality” are very different (one has substantial existence and the other does not).
Where does the division apply in this case?
The proximate cause of “reality” is matter whereas the proximate cause of “the experience of reality” is the consciousness of the observer.
In other words, matter creates reality and consciousness creates the identity of reality; so consciousness creates nations.
Matter creates consciousness, therefore the question I suppose has to be the nature of the link between the former and the latter.
That is why I said proximate cause rather than ultimate cause.
How do you actually know matter creates consciousness?
What else could?
Light or virtual energy.
Does light need matter?
Some say light is just higher frequencies of matter.
In that case, consciousness may not be caused by light or matter, but the equivalent of flebotinum, or virtual particle.
Shelly, I think most of us here are failing to understand where this is coming from. It’s such an odd argument to be making: atoms don’t “intend” things, therefore we’re justified in fighting against the tendency of nations to go to war.
It would seem a lot simpler to argue: there is not justification for war, therefore we have a right to try to prevent it.
(not that that’s necessarily true, but it’s a simpler argument).
Don’t be too quick to presuppose that this is a foregone conclusion. An alternative view is that consciousness is not created by anything; it just is reality.
It’s actually a highly logical and valid argument and makes perfect sense.
It may be logical, but still odd.