Are we the Body, Mind, or Consciousness?

[eaglerising]

Shepherdess

From first…then to… and finally…
Couldn’t you say that seeing yourself in this way is still fractured or fragmented?
The Self is like a diamond. It has different aspects to it but it is still all and the same as One.
There is a strong inter-connectedness between the mind and the body. One affects the other and vica versa in positive and negative ways.

I was pointing out that how I see things are the opposite of the finite body being aware of the finite mind and the finite mind being aware of finite consciousness. From my perspective, there is only infinite consciousness and the mind and body are contained within that infinite consciousness. In other words, there is only the infinite consciousness. What is commonly called matter is really consciousness. How would such a view be fractured or fragmented?

Eaglerising wrote: Today the mind is quiet, still and free to observe regardless of what I am doing.

Shepherdess:

You may be right here. I may be wrong here but is that even possible —regardless of what I am doing? Wouldn’t it DEPEND on what you were doing? But I may be wrong.

The limitations of thought, knowledge, belief, and perception prevent you from seeing anything different that what you are presently seeing. To see and understand what I said about the mind being quiet, still and free to observe you have to use that which is different and not a product of thought, knowledge, belief, or perception. A higher form of consciousness. A consciousness that is able to observe itself as well as thought, belief, and perception.

Nothing of itself or by itself can see itself. This is why we need a mirror to see ourselves. The same applies to thought and perception. So, I ask you, what is capable of seeing and observing thought and perception?

[WendyDarling]

Arc wrote

BUT how do we know if consciousness cannot somehow reside outside the brain and body. Doesn’t the scent of the rose also reside outside the rose?

I bet you didn’t figure someone would jump over that cliff and question that.

I was certainly hoping for I have been advocating for two separate bodies, the physical human form and the conscious soul form for what seems like ages on this forum, based on my 1st hand experiences of these cliff jumps.

[iambiguous]

So much more to the point [mine for example] who among us is able to make a clear distinction between them? Where does one stop and the others begin in any particular set of circumstances?

And then there is the part where some throw God into the mix. Or determinism.

[encode_decode]

eaglerising

I have lost my interest in this thread.

@eaglerising

eaglerising wrote:
Encode_Decode – Your last post is a good argument and it is logical to those who is not a panpsychist, regardless of what they may or may not be called. The reason being, “we can only recognize that which is contained within us.”

Encode_Decode:

Controversial. I also think all this mystery is not a great persuasive technique in a philosophy forum - people have better things to do than be baited. This type of persuasion is not the type that is using reasoning but the other type that uses temptation.

The following is a simpler example of what I was attempting to communicate. You can get from one place to another on land using an automobile, but you cannot get from New York to Paris, France with an automobile. You have to use a different vehicle such as a plane or ship to get there. Likewise, you have to use something that is different and is not a product of information, knowledge, belief, or perception to understand what I am saying.

Encode_Decode:

I think my argument is relative.

I understand that. In fact, based upon the vehicle you are using, you cannot think or perceive anything differently.

Encode_Decode:

I am curious; do true Panpsychists exercise logic? I have been considered by many to be a polymath and I am led to believe that Leibniz also held this same title - given that Leibniz was able to develop differential and integral calculus I think the question: do true Panpsychists exercise logic? is reasonable to ask a Panpsychist given that Leibniz was a Panpsychist.

Yes, I use logic, but often what I understand isn’t logical to the human mind due to its limitations.

Encode_Decode:

The statement “we can only recognize that which is contained within us” might be true to a Panpsychist but I believe this is up for debate - I also think my belief is justified given that ‘The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.’ is a statement that keeps on proving itself to be somewhat correct - it is this statement and many others like it that give me new ideas and leads me to new questions - new ideas and questions can be formed unconsciously too for that matter.

Can you recognize an animal, plant, or mineral that you have never seen before? You cannot because it isn’t contained within your memory or perception. Thus, it is UNKNOWN to you.

Your understanding of the whole is greater than the sum of its parts is based upon the vehicle you use to understand it. Likewise, how you view or perceive me to be egocentrism. I have often wondered if it is ignorance or arrogance or both, for thought to comprehend what is beyond its ability to comprehend. Unfortunately, neither thought nor knowledge is aware of their limitations.

This is the last time I will be communicating with you eaglerising. You have absolutely no idea why.

:-"

[encode_decode]

Arcturus Descending

I think you are a good person - perhaps I will give you my views of consciousness at a later date.

[WendyDarling]

@iambiguous

So much more to the point [mine for example] who among us is able to make a clear distinction between them? Where does one stop and the others begin in any particular set of circumstances?

And then there is the part where some throw God into the mix. Or determinism.

A clear distinction between…what?

[pilgrim-seeker_tom]

@eaglerising

Pilgram-seeker_tom –

Are panpsychists generally cool with the pursuit of prosperity? … personal wealth? … fame and fortune.

No, they are interested in peace, happiness, and the quality of their lives.

Epicurus’s “Pleasure Garden,” ???

[b]

“Pleasure is our first and kindred good. It is the starting point of every choice and of every aversion, and to it we always come back, inasmuch as we make feeling the rule by which to judge of every good thing.”

[/b]

Epicurean Hypocracy … the elephant in the room??

[phyllo]

How can it be hypocrisy if they are consistent about it? An Epicurean simply says that peace of mind is more good than wealth - more pleasurable than the pleasure that wealth gives.

[eaglerising]

Pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:

Epicurean Hypocracy … the elephant in the room??

Phyllo wrote:

How can it be hypocrisy if they are consistent about it? An Epicurean simply says that peace of mind is more good than wealth - more pleasurable than the pleasure that wealth gives.

Thank you Phyllo for the post. I was going to let Pilgrim-seeker_tom figure it out himself.

[eaglerising]

Pilgrim–seeker_tom if you discover what makes you uniquely different from the other 7.5 billion people on earth and develop it, you will be rewarded far more than you can possibly imagine. The beauty about this is that you love doing what makes you uniquely different. And because you love doing it, you do it most of the time so you really get good at it. And it is something others want and they compensate you for it.

[pilgrim-seeker_tom]

Aaron wrote:
[b]

I have lost my interest in this thread.

[/b]

Aaron … the unpleasant experiences in our lives are the most profitable … the basis for the expression …“never waste a good crisis”.

The ancient Chinese believed crisis and opportunity were twins … they always travel together … never alone. This belief was so deep they used the same pictograph in both words.

The sad reality is most people are so caught up in the crisis element they have no inclination to look for the opportunity that tags along with the crisis.

Resistance doesn’t help … riding the waves … like a California surfer does.

[WendyDarling]

@pilgrim-seeker_tom

Aaron wrote:
[b]

I have lost my interest in this thread.

[/b]

Aaron … the unpleasant experiences in our lives are the most profitable … the basis for the expression …“never waste a good crisis”.

The ancient Chinese believed crisis and opportunity were twins … they always travel together … never alone. This belief was so deep they used the same pictograph in both words.

The sad reality is most people are so caught up in the crisis element they have no inclination to look for the opportunity that tags along with the crisis.

Resistance doesn’t help … riding the waves … like a California surfer does.

tom, you’re on a big kahuna roll. Thanks for making me .

[pilgrim-seeker_tom]

@phyllo

How can it be hypocrisy if they are consistent about it? An Epicurean simply says that peace of mind is more good than wealth - more pleasurable than the pleasure that wealth gives.

While reflecting on this yesterday I realized the word “hypocrisy” is misleading … the word suggests conscious intent.

More accurately stated … “Epicurean Psychological Firewalls … the elephant in the room.”

Reminds me of an experience several years ago … chatting with a Chinese teenage girl … about 16 years old … conversational English training. This young girl was born into privilege yet retained a veneer of humility.

I asked her one day … "Is your world OK … not perfect … yet OK?

She smiled and replied “Yes”

I than asked her … “Is the world OK … not perfect … yet OK?”

With a look that said “Are you crazy” … she replied with an adamant … "NO!

Psychologists tell us our minds simply block from our view the “stuff” that is inconsistent with our personal world view.

[pilgrim-seeker_tom]

@eaglerising

Pilgrim–seeker_tom if you discover what makes you uniquely different from the other 7.5 billion people on earth and develop it

Are you referring to what some label the “Journey of Self Discovery”? … ergo “The Road Less Traveled”

I’ve been on this “less traveled road” … goat trail … for about 25 years … have yet to meet a fellow “traveler”.

OTH … the 43 years I spent travelling the “super highways” the crowds were so dense I couldn’t hear myself think.

[phyllo]

More accurately stated … “Epicurean Psychological Firewalls … the elephant in the room.”

Of course, I have no idea what you mean by this.

Epicureans define ‘good’ in a particular way. As a result they choose some things over others. I don’t know how that would qualify as a “psychological firewall”.

[Arcturus_Descending]

@encode_decode

Arcturus Descending

I think you are a good person - perhaps I will give you my views of consciousness at a later date.

Thank you. I appreciate that.

That calls to mind a question here: What is a good person? albeit I do not want to derail this thread. Is a good person basically someone who strives to be “decent” for the most part?

Anyway, I look forward to you perhaps giving me your views of consciousness at a later date.

[phyllo]

That calls to mind a question here: What is a good person? albeit I do not want to derail this thread. Is a good person basically someone who strives to be “decent” for the most part?

What is “decent”?
What is “strives”?
How much is “most part”?

[WendyDarling]

Phyllo,

I am horrified that you are asking Arc about decency as if her interactions do not portray any sense of online etiquette equaling decency.

[phyllo]

I am horrified that you are asking Arc about decency as if her interactions do not portray any sense of online etiquette equaling decency.

Be as horrified as you want.

She substituted the word ‘decent’ for the word ‘good’ and said nothing about the word ‘decent’ means to her.

No doubt lots of people will both agree and disagree with her … while having a completely different idea of what the word ‘decent’ means.

[phyllo]

Who is good?

Someone who practices the virtues? Why or why not?

Roman virtues :

Personal Virtues

These are the qualities of life to which every Citizen (and, ideally, everyone else) should aspire. They are the heart of the Via Romana — the Roman Way — and are thought to be those qualities which gave the Roman Republic the moral strength to conquer and civilize the world. Today, they are the rods against which we can measure our own behavior and character, and we can strive to better understand and practice them in our everyday lives.

Auctoritas: “Spiritual Authority” The sense of one’s social standing, built up through experience, Pietas, and Industria.

Comitas: “Humor” Ease of manner, courtesy, openness, and friendliness.

Clementia: “Mercy” Mildness and gentleness.

Dignitas: “Dignity” A sense of self-worth, personal pride.

Firmitas: “Tenacity” Strength of mind, the ability to stick to one’s purpose.

Frugalitas: “Frugalness” Economy and simplicity of style, without being miserly.

Gravitas: “Gravity” A sense of the importance of the matter at hand, responsibility and earnestness.

Honestas: “Respectibility” The image that one presents as a respectable member of society.

Humanitas: “Humanity” Refinement, civilization, learning, and being cultured.

Industria: “Industriousness” Hard work.

Pietas: “Dutifulness” More than religious piety; a respect for the natural order socially, politically, and religiously. Includes the ideas of patriotism and devotion to others.

Prudentia: “Prudence” Foresight, wisdom, and personal discretion.

Salubritas: “Wholesomeness” Health and cleanliness.

Severitas: “Sternness” Gravity, self-control.

Veritas: “Truthfulness” Honesty in dealing with others.

Public Virtues

In addition to the private virtues which were aspired to by individuals, Roman culture also strived to uphold Virtues which were shared by all of society in common. Note that some of the virtues to which individuals were expected to aspire are also public virtues to be sought by society as a whole. These virtues were often expressed by minting them on coinage; in this way, their message would be shared by all the Classical world. In many cases, these Virtues were personified as deities.

Abundantia: “Abundance, Plenty” The ideal of there being enough food and prosperity for all segments of society.

Aequitas: “Equity” Fair dealing both within government and among the people.

Bonus Eventus: “Good fortune” Rememberance of important positive events.

Clementia: “Clemency” Mercy, shown to other nations.

Concordia: “Concord” Harmony among the Roman people, and also between Rome and other nations.

Felicitas: “Happiness, prosperity” A celebration of the best aspects of Roman society.

Fides: “Confidence” Good faith in all commercial and governmental dealings.

Fortuna: “Fortune” An acknowledgement of positive events.

Genius: “Spirit of Rome” Acknowledgement of the combined spirit of Rome, and its people.

Hilaritas: “Mirth, rejoicing” An expression of happy times.

Justica: “Justice” As expressed by sensible laws and governance.

Laetitia: “Joy, Gladness” The celebration of thanksgiving, often of the resolution of crisis.

Liberalitas: “Liberality” Generous giving.

Libertas: “Freedom” A Virtue which has been subsequently aspired to by all cultures.

Nobilitas: “Noblility” Noble action within the public sphere.

Ops: “Wealth” Acknowledgement of the prosperity of the Roman world.

Patientia: “Endurance, Patience” The ability to weather storms and crisis.

Pax: “Peace” A celebration of peace among society and between nations.

Pietas: “Piety, Dutifulness” People paying honor to the gods.

Providentia: “Providence, Fortethought” The ability of Roman society to survive trials and manifest a greater destiny.

Pudicita: “Modesty, Chastity.” A public expression which belies the accusation of “moral corruptness” in ancient Rome.

Salus: “Safety” Concern for public health and welfare.

Securitas: “Confidence, Security” Brought by peace and efficient governance.

Spes: “Hope” Especially during times of difficulty.

Uberitas: “Fertility” Particularly concerning agriculture.

Virtus: “Courage” Especially of leaders within society and government.

crystalinks.com/romanvirtues.html

Christian virtues :

Faith is belief in the right things (including the virtues!).
Hope is taking a positive future view, that good will prevail.
Charity is concern for, and active helping of, others.
Fortitude is never giving up.
Justice is being fair and equitable with others. 
Prudence is care of and moderation with money.
Temperance is moderation of needed things and abstinence from things which are not needed.

changingminds.org/explanations/v … irtues.htm